Younger but more arrogant crowd this year?

[ICGenie]

If we're going to moan about what people wearing being offensive, surely it should be all the people wearing bindis/American Indian headdresses. Nothing offensive about hunters, everything offensive about cultural appropriation.

Sadly, even though I am a practising yogi and study yoga, tantra and Hinduism I feel that I can't wear a bindhi because I am white, blonde and because people would view me as just jumping on some fashion bandwagon...

[russycarps]

I suspect that most cultures have experienced some form of oppression in their history. I'm not sure that building even bigger cultural divides by attempting to 'own' a hairstyle or some form of bodily decoration really helps us in putting those issues to bed though.

My opinion..You drop that sort of shit at the gates when you enter the festival and grow up.

We have people discriminating on here about the type of wellington boots people wear ffs!!

What oppression has the white man ever faced???

It's not for the oppressor to decide when the oppressed should put their issues to bed.

[progue]

What oppression has the white man ever faced???

It's not for the oppressor to decide when the oppressed should put their issues to bed.

The white man?

Who the hell is "The White Man"

As opposed to who "The Black Man?"

God I hate this sort of drivel ....goodnight!

[DeanoL]

What oppression has the white man ever faced???

It's not for the oppressor to decide when the oppressed should put their issues to bed.

And are you from the culture being 'appropriated' or are you just being offended on their behalf and making that decision for them in exactly the same way?

[Scotdy]

Is it not our fault as the older generation passing the batton on to say this is Glastonbury and this is how we roll here...

That said, I threw a balloon into the crowd and a man in his 50's came nose to nose with me from out the crowd to say that it hit his head and he was going to "do me" and other various footballer handbag phrases. I just laughed and repeated it's a balloon, your at Glastonbury. After a couple of minutes he did a Liam style walk off pushing people out of his way.

[russycarps]

The white man?

Who the hell is "The White Man"

As opposed to who "The Black Man?"

God I hate this sort of drivel ....goodnight!

I am sorry if these themes make you feel uncomfortable. Perhaps it's best you do go and immerse yourself back in your safe, privileged existence.

[neilloggie]

Lots of people pushing through crowds with no consideration or sorrys this year. I always say excuse me when I need to do it- where are the manners?

For Metallica we stood just to the right of the of the sound desk, along side us a big crater had appeared and nobody was stood near it, the amount of people who thought they would be clever and push through to get closer, but ended up falling in the hole or slipping over was immense. It was the most fun we had all weekend watching people sliding over.

[frostypaw]

What oppression has the white man ever faced???

It's not for the oppressor to decide when the oppressed should put their issues to bed.

What about us under Europe? Eh? Eh?

I'll get me coat

[progue]

I am sorry if these themes make you feel uncomfortable. Perhaps it's best you do go and immerse yourself back in your safe, privileged existence.

It's not that they make me uncomfortable, it is just that it really is a whole long winded argument that would deserve far more attention than throwing out a few divisive definitions for human beings.

Like you say if individuals want to attach themselves to things that make them unhappy and unable to fully integrate with other human beings then that is their choice.

[CaledonianGonzo]

On the subject of the Native American head-dresses, while it's obviously a far more sensitive topic in the US than in Pilton, the communities in question have made it clear they find it bang out of order. If you want to accuse the Native Americans of oppressing your freedom to dress how you want to, then crack on - but you'll look like an absolute walloper.

On the way into the Dolly crowd, we actually did come across someone who was blacked up. I shook my head at him and said 'Not cool' and his response was actually quite whiny:

'It's a tribute to Al Jolson, but no one here's ever heard of him!'

To which:

'Yeah - I know exactly who he is and that's still not cool'.

At a guess I'd say he was in his 40s.

Edited July 2, 2014 by CaledonianGonzo

[progue]

There are a million and one "sensitive matters" that we could look for if we wanted to and whilst I appreciate that Native Americans may have chosen to find the wearing of 'their' head-dresses 'offensive', it really isn't something that I would be overly sensitive about on their behalf when wandering around Glastonbury. I'm not sure I would wear one myself, but I do wear other stuff on my head.

Ultimately it is just another form of bodily adornment and one that the Native Americans happen to have borrowed from other living creatures without asking permission from the original owner in any case (An utterly ignorant statement to some, but factually correct nonetheless). Humans have been adorning their bodies with all sorts of things for millions of years and likewise copying other human beings in the process.

It is hard to say that someone is wrong for attaching themselves to these 'things' and placing significance upon them and, of course, then becoming offended and hurt and angry in the process, however I do find it difficult to understand what purpose that actually serves.

[Craig_G]

On the subject of the Native American head-dresses, while it's obviously a far more sensitive topic in the US than in Pilton, the communities in question have made it clear they find it bang out of order. If you want to accuse the Native Americans of oppressing your freedom to dress how you want to, then crack on - but you'll look like an absolute walloper.

Funnily enough I saw a walkabout performer, dressed in a characature Native American costume having a photo taken with a young boy dressed in a head dress.

The performer was actually a Native American and clearly not offended.

[Craig_G]

This my first my Glastonbury since 2010 and the biggest change was definitely the crowd. There were a lot more noticeable 'pop teens' and older 'Landrover Mum' types - make of that what you will.

The worst thing was certainly the amount of trash this year. It was disgusting and heartbreaking to see the complete lack of respect for the farm. From the moment we arrived the car park was littered with rubbish. The queue from East 9 to Ped Gate C was along hedgerows full of trash and people throwing their rubbish on the floor as they went.

I actually had a go at a few people about the mess they made - including the people I was camped with. I gave up in the end as there was so much of it.

One distinct memory I have (not pointing fingers at age groups here) is seeing a pretty young girl, looking happy and with flowers in her hair walking down from her tent. She looked just the picture of the happy, care-free festival hippy girl. Then she just decided to just drop her empty cider can in the middle of the footpath - just 2 meters from a bin - and keep on walking like it was perfectly natural.

It reminded me of the comment someone made her just a couple of weeks ago about the old Keep Britain Tidy campaign and how that generation seems to have passed.

[CaledonianGonzo]

These things don't happen in the abstract. Freedom of expression - in terms of what you wear and what you say - doesn't absolve you of responsibility for how those things can impact others. And that freedom also extends to the rights of others to add context and, if necessary, tell you that they object.

[Ruwise]

What oppression has the white man ever faced???

It's not for the oppressor to decide when the oppressed should put their issues to bed.

Whilst I broadly agree with you about cultural appropriation etc. I think many white men have been oppressed. Working class men were oppressed and being Irish I can certainly say that Irish people were. No Dogs, no Blacks, no Irish was once a common sign. Also, gay men are still oppressed by some regardless of their colour. That said I do agree with you that if a group of people say they find it offensive to see white people wearing their clothes then we need to listen to them and not dismiss it. I would like us to get to stage where we could wear whatever we choose and it wouldn't be a political issue but I think we are a long way from there.

I do think many people who choose to wear them are not doing it meaning to cause offence but actually because they love something about that culture. I have never worn them but I find the Indian headdresses so beautiful. My sister in law is Indian and I probably appreciate Indian dress and culture in general more than she does.

[rossm18]

Whilst I broadly agree with you about cultural appropriation etc. I think many white men have been oppressed. Working class men were oppressed and being Irish I can certainly say

that Irish people were. No Dogs, no Blacks, no

Irish was once a common sign. Also, gay men are still oppressed by some regardless of their colour. That said I do agree with you that if a

group of people say they find it offensive to see

white people wearing their clothes then we need to listen to them and not dismiss it. I would like us to get to stage where we could wear

whatever we choose and it wouldn't be a political

issue but I think we are a long way from there.

I do think many people who choose to wear

them are not doing it meaning to cause offence

but actually because they love something about that culture. I have never worn them but I find the Indian headdresses so beautiful. My sister in

law is Indian and I probably appreciate Indian dress and culture in general more than she

does.

Have to agree with the comment about irish people being oppressed and even now living in Glasgow, Scotland there's still a lot of sectarianism towards people with Irish catholic backgrounds

Edited July 2, 2014 by rossm18

[DeanoL]

On the subject of the Native American head-dresses, while it's obviously a far more sensitive topic in the US than in Pilton, the communities in question have made it clear they find it bang out of order.

Well then they don't have to go to Glastonbury. No-one has a right not to be offended. Glasto-goers are not wearing these head-dresses out of any sort of malice or bigotry, they're wearing them because they like how it makes them look. It's worn out of love for an aspect of the culture, even if purely aesthetic. Now, is it possible that in some cases, some people are wearing them to mock and denigrate that culture? Yes, of course, and that's an issue. But context and intent matters, And guess what? If young girls start wearing them for fun, it's a lot harder to wear them in a 'nasty' way, because it'll look like you're just wearing it because you want to.

And honestly, if you're at the point where other people dressing like you is the best thing you can find to complain about being oppressed, then I might subtly suggest that maybe actually your oppression is over with. And if it's not because there is still actual oppression going on, then maybe that's the thing to worry about.

[CaledonianGonzo]

On a similar (-ish) subject there was a guy walking round with an anti-Scottish flag and my freedom of speech certainly extended as far as some friendly advice to him to maybe take it down before someone else rammed it up his arse.

Edit: in response to the post above

Edited July 2, 2014 by CaledonianGonzo

[DeanoL]

These things don't happen in the abstract. Freedom of expression - in terms of what you wear and what you say - doesn't absolve you of responsibility for how those things can impact others. And that freedom also extends to the rights of others to add context and, if necessary, tell you that they object.

But as of yet, we haven't seen or heard from one person from these cultures offended or impacted by what people were wearing at Glastonbury have we? Just other people being offended on their behalf.

[CaledonianGonzo]

But as of yet, we haven't seen or heard from one person from these cultures offended or impacted by what people were wearing at Glastonbury have we? Just other people being offended on their behalf.

I'm not black but also think that that the fella who was blacked up was a bit out line.

[progue]

Whilst I broadly agree with you about cultural appropriation etc. I think many white men have been oppressed. Working class men were oppressed and being Irish I can certainly say that Irish people were. No Dogs, no Blacks, no Irish was once a common sign. Also, gay men are still oppressed by some regardless of their colour. That said I do agree with you that if a group of people say they find it offensive to see white people wearing their clothes then we need to listen to them and not dismiss it. I would like us to get to stage where we could wear whatever we choose and it wouldn't be a political issue but I think we are a long way from there.

I do think many people who choose to wear them are not doing it meaning to cause offence but actually because they love something about that culture. I have never worn them but I find the Indian headdresses so beautiful. My sister in law is Indian and I probably appreciate Indian dress and culture in general more than she does.

We can attach the idea of oppression to particular groups, cultures, races etc..But that fails to recognise that in reality these are all individual human beings and all of them capable of being oppressed or oppressor.

On an individual level people with whatever coloured skin have oppressed each other through violent or abusive behaviour, gay men can and have oppressed other gay men etc.

[CaledonianGonzo]

Gotta check your privilege before you can smash the kyriarchy.

[Ruwise]

We can attach the idea of oppression to particular groups, cultures, races etc..But that fails to recognise that in reality these are all individual human beings and all of them capable of being oppressed or oppressor.

On an individual level people with whatever coloured skin have oppressed each other through violent or abusive behaviour, gay men can and have oppressed other gay men etc.

I agree was just giving some examples of groups that are white and male that have been targeted. On an individual level many people are oppressed by parents, friends etc every day though think we also have to accept Russy's point that for some groups the oppression is systemic and inescapable whereas for others you can cut individuals out of your life and remove it.

Once thing we have to accept is that if somebody of a different colour or culture tells us that something is offensive or racist we need to accept that to them it is ad maybe try having a more open dialogue about it. I know for a fact I get extremely annoyed with men telling me that something I think is sexist is not and that I'm being irrational. I'm pretty sure they don't have any direct experience of what it's like to grow up as a female and I do. We also have to accept that people are individuals and because you have a friend who is a member of an ethnic group and would not be offended doesn't mean they speak for every member of that ethnic group.

[DeanoL]

I'm not black but also think that that the fella who was blacked up was a bit out line.

Skin colour (and sexuality, and gender) are in no way the same as what clothes someone wears. You can always change the latter.

Once thing we have to accept is that if somebody of a different colour or culture tells us that something is offensive or racist we need to accept that to them it is ad maybe try having a more open dialogue about it. I know for a fact I get extremely annoyed with men telling me that something I think is sexist is not and that I'm being irrational. I'm pretty sure they don't have any direct experience of what it's like to grow up as a female and I do. We also have to accept that people are individuals and because you have a friend who is a member of an ethnic group and would not be offended doesn't mean they speak for every member of that ethnic group.

Well yes, but then that raises the question of how many or what proportion of a group someone has to be speaking for in order for it to be valid. Some people will find it offensive, some won't, in any given case. If it just offends half the group is it okay? 10%? Just one person? You always have to draw the line somewhere, if you try and live life doing nothing that could ever offend anyone, you're going to fail.

[russycarps]

Well then they don't have to go to Glastonbury. No-one has a right not to be offended. Glasto-goers are not wearing these head-dresses out of any sort of malice or bigotry, they're wearing them because they like how it makes them look. It's worn out of love for an aspect of the culture, even if purely aesthetic. Now, is it possible that in some cases, some people are wearing them to mock and denigrate that culture? Yes, of course, and that's an issue. But context and intent matters, And guess what? If young girls start wearing them for fun, it's a lot harder to wear them in a 'nasty' way, because it'll look like you're just wearing it because you want to.

And honestly, if you're at the point where other people dressing like you is the best thing you can find to complain about being oppressed, then I might subtly suggest that maybe actually your oppression is over with. And if it's not because there is still actual oppression going on, then maybe that's the thing to worry about.

So your solution is to make Glastonbury a no-go area for native Americans just so people can wear fancy dress?

Are you aware native Americans continue to be oppressed by the white invader to this day?

Your views are born out of ignorance.