Younger but more arrogant crowd this year?

[russycarps]

I fail to see how wearing a Bindi should be seen as bad taste at all.

My understanding of this issue is that it's a bit more complicated because the bindhi has already been turned into a fashion statement by non Hindu Indians (via bollywood).

I'm not sure if there is a big out cry about westerners wearing them or not. But if it was offensive to some Indians, I just wouldn't wear one, it's no big deal not to wear one.

(Not that I'd wear one in the first place, as I'm not a fashion following drone.)

[progue]

My understanding of this issue is that it's a bit more complicated because the bindhi has already been turned into a fashion statement by non Hindu Indians (via bollywood).

I'm not sure if there is a big out cry about westerners wearing them or not. But if it was offensive to some Indians, I just wouldn't wear one, it's no big deal not to wear one.

(Not that I'd wear one in the first place, as I'm not a fashion following drone.)

Me neither, but I think we have to bear in mind this has been turned into a fashion item, whilst having spritual meaning across different religions and that we live in a multicultural society where, quite frankly, it should be embraced that young 'White' school kids can adopt a cultural piece of dress from their Asian friends.

Personally I actually see these sorts of cultural exchanges as something quite wonderful and heart warming.

Edited July 2, 2014 by progue

[kidpresentable]

I saw lots of young people but didn't see any behaving badly. At 31, I must be getting old as some of the prominent names on the line up (Rudimental, Shrillex, Disclosure) meant nothing to me!

[DeanoL]

Me neither, but I think we have to accept that bearing in mind this has been turned into a fashion item, whilst having spritual meaning across different religions and the fact that we live in a multicultural society where, quite frankly, it should be embraced that young 'white' school kids can adopt a cultural piece of dress from their Asian friends.

Personally I actually see these sorts of cultural exchanges as something quite wonderful and heart warming.

But it's not okay because that piece of dress is mine mine mine and you can't have it. It's literally materialism. Caring about what a thing is above all other concerns. And yet the same people attacking this are those saying people shouldn't be so attached to their phones, because it's so materialistic and the festival isn't about that.

[ICGenie]

Anyone with even a basic knowledge of the British raj for example must surely realise how wearing a bindhi can be seen as bad taste.

My understanding of this issue is that it's a bit more complicated because the bindhi has already been turned into a fashion statement by non Hindu Indians (via bollywood).

I'm not sure if there is a big out cry about westerners wearing them or not. But if it was offensive to some Indians, I just wouldn't wear one, it's no big deal not to wear one.

(Not that I'd wear one in the first place, as I'm not a fashion following drone.)

So you don't actually know any Hindus are offended by it, you're just making an assumption that they must be offended by it and invented a reason why to back up your own argument.

Am I allowed to wear one for spiritual purposes? Or am I too white for that? Is it ok for an Asian Christian to wear one but not a white Hindu purely because it looks more authentic?

[UEF]

There isn't a British equivalent as no fecker has ever oppressed us since 1066!

Oi. someone from the Leftfield tent will be round in a bit to have an incoherent word with you!

[mrtourette]

But it's not okay because that piece of dress is mine mine mine and you can't have it. It's literally materialism. Caring about what a thing is above all other concerns. And yet the same people attacking this are those saying people shouldn't be so attached to their phones, because it's so materialistic and the festival isn't about that.

I think I see your point but that's a poor example, there are historical and meaningful attachments to those objects. Yes we should assess their place in a modern society and the reasons behind their use before judging someone for doing so rather than necessarily clinging on to an out-dated notion, but I don't think that makes them like phone or tablet.

Edited July 2, 2014 by mrtourette

[mrtourette]

There isn't a British equivalent as no fecker has ever oppressed us since 1066!

What about the EU and their straight bananas?

[CaledonianGonzo]

Maybe so eventually they get the hell over it and we can stop fighting and arguing over what's nothing more than a symbol and actually deal with the real issues.

And I feel bad for them over a lot of that oppression but I genuinely couldn't give two tugs about people getting upset over icons. It's properly pathetic, and if it's all you've got left to complain about, you don't get to claim oppression any more.

Symbols can be incredibly powerful and important. To assume otherwise is actually pretty arrogant.

Whether they should be is another matter, but until then don't try waving a swastika at a holocaust memorial to try and prove me wrong, OK.

[russycarps]

So you don't actually know any Hindus are offended by it, you're just making an assumption that they must be offended by it and invented a reason why to back up your own argument.

Am I allowed to wear one for spiritual purposes? Or am I too white for that? Is it ok for an Asian Christian to wear one but not a white Hindu purely because it looks more authentic?

No, I did a brief Google search and saw articles from hindus who are offended by it. You could do the same and find the answer your questions.

I don't know any hindus in real life it's pointless me commenting any further on it.

[DeanoL]

Symbols can be incredibly powerful and important. To assume otherwise is actually pretty arrogant.

Whether they should be is another matter, but until then don't try waving a swastika at a holocaust memorial to try and prove me wrong, OK.

You know the main reason the swastika still has such huge power? Because it's banned outright in Germany, so you can't mock it, take the piss, use it sarcastically, devalue it, destroy it or ruin it's grip. Maybe that's a good thing? I don't know.

No, I did a brief Google search and saw articles from hindus who are offended by it. You could do the same and find the answer your questions.

I don't know any hindus in real life it's pointless me commenting any further on it.

Oh come on. Google any topic and you'll find someone offended by it. In fact, weren't some people offended by Metallica and the bear hunting thing? On that basis, we shouldn't have had Metallica at Glastonbury because it's not worth it if it offends any one at all. Why not just have someone on that won't offend instead.

[Jelly Belly]

We got ripped off, purchased £350 Hospitality 'tickets' only to find out they didn't exist and were turned away at the gate on Thursday morning and had to go home and watch it on the TV, this thread has cheered me right up because I am a bitter old git, thanks

[progue]

There are pretty mixed feelings on the Bindi, but I think it is viewed as less of an issue as some other cultural symbolism.

Of course this is also an issue for western culture as well. I am sure that some Christians would find a couple dressed up as a tart and vicar or a person dressed as a nun wandering around Glastonbury offensive. The use of rosary beads as a decorative item would also, no doubt, cause offence to some.

I think you have to try and put these things into context and realise that if you enter an area like the festival with 200,000 very random and different people, that you possibly have to leave a good few of your personal prejudices or 'things that might offend you' outside the gates or perhaps choose to go somewhere else or an area within the festival where you are more likely to find people who share more similar values or opinions.

Edited July 2, 2014 by progue

[DeanoL]

I think you have to try and put these things into context and realise that if you enter an area like the festival with 200,000 very random and different people, that you possibly have to leave a good few of your personal prejudices or 'things that might offend you' outside the gates or perhaps choose to go somewhere else or an area within the festival where you are more likely to find people who share more similar values or opinions.

Yep - I'd never argue that being tolerant meant tolerating intolerance, but that's not what is happening here. People are not wearing these things to be offensive, they're wearing them out of love. Intent matters.

[mrtourette]

We got ripped off, purchased £350 Hospitality 'tickets' only to find out they didn't exist and were turned away at the gate on Thursday morning and had to go home and watch it on the TV, this thread has cheered me right up because I am a bitter old git, thanks

That's terrible, but I have to ask what the hell were you thinking?

[Ruwise]

I'm not sure irrational is a word that I would use, but I would actually question the overall benefit, to you, of you taking personal offence or more importantly allowing yourself to be hurt by anything that another individual chose to say to you or to wear in your company.

Because the simple fact is our words and actions can hurt and offend people.Some words and phrases allow white heterosexual men to be seen as the norm and all other people to be less than them. Groups of lads shouting get your tits out at singers for example is offensive not just to the singer but to every female in the audience who has to bear witness to it. It can intimidate other women who realise they are objects to these people.

If you don't see why you should be considerate to other people in your thoughts, words and deeds then you need to take a hard look at yourself. I like Indian headdresses. I think there are genuinely beautiful but I wouldn't wear them knowing that it would be offensive to that group of people. I'd like to think one day we can get to a time when people are not oppressed and that they would be able to see it as a compliment that people want to wear things from their heritage but until we reach that stage I would rather be considerate and sensitive to their culture. In the same way that though I am a staunch atheist I would dress modestly in a Muslim country.

[Jelly Belly]

That's terrible, but I have to ask what the hell were you thinking?

I've started a thread about it just to warn others from being tempted in future years. It all seemed legit(ish) and we put trust in someone it now appears that we shouldn't have, we were idiots but desperate to go, took the gamble and lost. It's safe to say that we won't be making the same mistake twice.

[DeanoL]

I'd like to think one day we can get to a time when people are not oppressed and that they would be able to see it as a compliment that people want to wear things from their heritage but until we reach that stage I would rather be considerate and sensitive to their culture.

We won't unless people challenge it though. Even if a group isn't oppressed, they still try and claim ownership over certain sorts of dress or symbols. See the ridiculous 'real geek girl' stuff for a horrid example.

Even if we reach a point where native Americans are no longer oppressed, they'll still get shirty about people 'appropriating' their heritage. It's not linked to the oppression, it's a different thing (note: in some rare cases, where the oppression has included the use of direct attacks on certain objects it can be - say Jewish gold teeth - but that's rare).

But I don't buy the idea that cultural appropriation is a form of oppression in and of itself.

[mrtourette]

I've started a thread about it just to warn others from being tempted in future years. It all seemed legit(ish) and we put trust in someone it now appears that we shouldn't have, we were idiots but desperate to go, took the gamble and lost. It's safe to say that we won't be making the same mistake twice.

Yeah kudos for alerting others to your plight. We'd all like to think that it's a story that shouldn't need to be told but every year it happens.

[Ruwise]

We won't unless people challenge it though. Even if a group isn't oppressed, they still try and claim ownership over certain sorts of dress or symbols. See the ridiculous 'real geek girl' stuff for a horrid example.

Even if we reach a point where native Americans are no longer oppressed, they'll still get shirty about people 'appropriating' their heritage. It's not linked to the oppression, it's a different thing (note: in some rare cases, where the oppression has included the use of direct attacks on certain objects it can be - say Jewish gold teeth - but that's rare).

But I don't buy the idea that cultural appropriation is a form of oppression in and of itself.

But there is challenging it by having a dialogue with people and asking why they feel it is sacred for example I think the main issue with Indian Headdress is that it is something earned within their culture rather than something just anyone is entitled to wear. It would be a bit like people wearing fake war medals in Britain as a fashion accessory.

It is not challenging something to simply dismiss their concerns and say 'I do what I want sod how other people feel about it'.

[russycarps]

But there is challenging it by having a dialogue with people and asking why they feel it is sacred for example I think the main issue with Indian Headdress is that it is something earned within their culture rather than something just anyone is entitled to wear. It would be a bit like people wearing fake war medals in Britain as a fashion accessory.

It is not challenging something to simply dismiss their concerns and say 'I do what I want sod how other people feel about it'.

Brilliant point about the war medals, I'll be using that in future!

[KryziF]

I thought the reason it was particularly offensive is that a headdress is a symbol of status and achievement that is an honour that has to be earned and the wearing of them is restricted even within the tribes in question. Its like walking round claiming to be a doctor or a pretending to be a war veteran cos you think it cool.

Its a different argument for example as to if wearing a sari or kimono is cultural appropriation or cultural appreciation.

Ignore just seen the post above after typing this

Edited July 2, 2014 by KryziF

[Ruwise]

Brilliant point about the war medals, I'll be using that in future!

It was the best example I could think of that a lot of white British people would be up in arms about.

[russycarps]

It was the best example I could think of that a lot of white British people would be up in arms about.

Yeh it is.

It would be more comparable if Britain had lost the war to Germany, and they still occupied Britain today, and it was the German occupiers wearing British medals as fashion accessories.

[progue]

Because the simple fact is our words and actions can hurt and offend people.Some words and phrases allow white heterosexual men to be seen as the norm and all other people to be less than them. Groups of lads shouting get your tits out at singers for example is offensive not just to the singer but to every female in the audience who has to bear witness to it. It can intimidate other women who realise they are objects to these people.

If you don't see why you should be considerate to other people in your thoughts, words and deeds then you need to take a hard look at yourself. I like Indian headdresses. I think there are genuinely beautiful but I wouldn't wear them knowing that it would be offensive to that group of people. I'd like to think one day we can get to a time when people are not oppressed and that they would be able to see it as a compliment that people want to wear things from their heritage but until we reach that stage I would rather be considerate and sensitive to their culture. In the same way that though I am a staunch atheist I would dress modestly in a Muslim country.

Oh I'm not suggesting for one minute we shouldn't take responsibility for our own actions and, wherever it feels appropriate, then act in a way that shows respect for other people at all, quite the contrary.

I am simply saying that by the same token, we also have the option to be offended by things and more importantly hurt ourselves in the process, that we need not allow ourselves to be hurt by. In other words we simply make a conscious decision not to allow those people who are, by their nature, inconsiderate or bigoted to affect us. For one thing it immediately removes any power or control they may have over you as an individual.

Of course we can also make a conscious choice to challenge and change those peoples opinions, but we do not 'need' to allow ourselves to be hurt or damaged in the process, nor even to bear any malice towards the person who holds the opinion.