What women (don't) want.

[feral chile]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

so what you're saying is: a man should have to ask a woman's permission to find her attractive before he's allowed to find her attractive....?

It has to be that, otherwise a man is entitled to find a woman attractive without her permission.

And if it's that, then you're advocating that women have the same greater-control over men that men currently have over women, and that's perfect feminism.

Except of course that's not perfect feminism, that's merely thre reverse of today's sexist-driven society, but with women in charge and not men.

Your whole angle here doesn't stand up to even the slightest logical scrutiny. There's versions of feminism that do, tho.

That's because you're fixated on attraction being a problem, and framing everything I say within that, when I'm saying exactly the opposite.

Entitlement and possession is why attraction becomes an issue, but it's a symptom, not the cause. Women are objectified and therefore Emma Watson's photo is being interpreted in that way, by men and women alike. So we're all objectifying her. She's just doing. We're the ones looking.

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, feral chile said:

Emma hasn't put herself up for objectification.

you said objectification is unavoidable - and as someone claiming herself as a feminist, Watson should know that too.

So care to tell me how her putting out a photo of herself in suggestive form isn't going to cause objectification (and a greater amount of it than they'd be without her photo in the mix)?

 

[feral chile]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/rules-for-being-a-woman_us_58c125afe4b070e55af9ebd1?

Rules For Being A Woman

By Erin O’Loughlin

Go play outside. Run with the boys, but don’t play kiss chase. Play mummies and daddies, but not doctors and nurses. Speak up now, don’t be shy. Be nice, be quiet, hush now, don’t you ever stop talking? Wear a pretty dress, give your dolly a bottle, oh isn’t she cute? Don’t worry about your looks, brush your hair, scrub your nails. Stop playing in the dirt.

Girls can be scientists too. You can be whatever you want to be. Don’t you want to know how to cook? Take your purse to the toilet so no one sees your tampon. Don’t talk about cramps in front of your father. Embrace being a woman! Shorts are not ladylike. Sports are not ladylike. Buy a good deodorant. Don’t wear too much make-up. Don’t be such a tomboy.

Eat healthy. Treat yourself, you deserve it! Eat a sandwich, why don’t you? Don’t put that crap in your mouth. Love your body. Show off your curves. Shave it, wax it, starve it. Lose weight. Put on some muscle. Dress how you want. Only wear something that flatters your body shape. Cover up that midriff, it’s too sexy. Cover up that midriff, it’s not sexy enough.

Go on the pill, just in case. Don’t let him touch you. Don’t touch yourself. Make sure you flirt. Don’t lead him on. Give him what he wants or he won’t like you. Don’t desire. Be desirable. Don’t chase after boys. Don’t chase after girls. Always use a condom. Don’t get pregnant. Don’t have an abortion. Don’t have sex until you’re ready. Don’t have sex. Be sexy.

Always be aware of your surroundings. Carry your car keys in your hand. Don’t get drunk. Don’t lose control. Take back the night! Don’t slut shame. Don’t be a slut. Never have sex on the first date. Don’t be so frigid. Play hard to get. Have sex when he wants it. Be his best friend. Don’t friendzone him. Don’t be such a stuck-up bitch. Get a sense of humour, why don’t you? Learn how to take a joke!

Kiss other women to turn guys on. Don’t get turned on by other women. Don’t be a lesbian, or transsexual, or bi-sexual. Embrace your sexuality. Own your identity. Live your femininity!

Don’t shout. Don’t get emotional. Do you have to be so cold all the time? Get in touch with your inner self. Think about his feelings. Would it hurt you to smile? Try harder. Don’t cry. Express yourself!

Take pre-natal vitamins to prepare your body. Don’t smoke, don’t drink. Don’t worry so much! Have an epidural. Have a natural birth. Make a birth plan. Just let us do our job. Use a stretch-mark cream. Be a natural woman. Don’t eat for two. Breastfeed exclusively, bottle feed if you want to, pump if you can, don’t get your tits out in public. Get baby on a routine, don’t let him cry it out, don’t let him nurse to sleep, do whatever feels right, trust your instincts! Start solids at 3 months, at 4 months, at 6 months, at 3 months. Breastfeed for the 1st year, for the first 2 years, get back to work as soon as possible. Send her to daycare, keep him at home as long as you can—just enjoy it while they’re little! Smile, savor it, speak to your doctor if you feel depressed.

Lean in. Be in the boy’s club. Act like a lady, think like a man. Be the boss. Don’t be bossy. Dress tight enough to show you’re a woman and loose enough to prove you’re a lady. Break the glass ceiling! Don’t ask questions. Don’t ask. Don’t question. Don’t be so aggressive. Don’t raise your voice. Give me your opinion when I ask for it.

Buy anti-wrinkle cream. Perfect the natural look. Set a good example for your daughter. Don’t talk about your sex life. Age gracefully. Try Botox. Look good for your age. Don’t age. Have the confidence to ask for what you want. Live a simple life.

Smile. Smile until your cheeks ache.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, feral chile said:

That's because you're fixated on attraction being a problem

Nope, that's what you are when you say objectification is a problem.

[eFestivals]

just give me a version without the illogical and conflicting bollocks you've given so far, feral.

[feral chile]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Nope, that's what you are when you say objectification is a problem.

ok you define what you think objectification is.

because you're all over the place. male dominance? Physical attraction?

You're skipping around all over the place to suit your argument.

Edited March 10, 2017 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

15 minutes ago, feral chile said:

ok you define what you think objectification is.

because you're all over the place. male dominance? Physical attraction?

You're skipping around all over the place to suit your argument.

It's not me who's putting forwards the inconsistencies. It's me that's pointing out the inconsistencies in what you say.

If objectification is the 'bad' driving force of male sexism that feminism is a reaction against, you need to tell me how Watson can put out that photo and not be objectified.

And if you can't, you need to recognise that she *will* be objectified.

And if she's being objectified, you need to tell me how her objectification furthers feminism.

Because Watson has claimed that photo is furthering the feminist cause.

[feral chile]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

It's not me who's putting forwards the inconsistencies. It's me that's pointing out the inconsistencies in what you say.

If objectification is the 'bad' driving force of male sexism that feminism is a reaction against, you need to tell me how Watson can put out that photo and not be objectified.

And if you can't, you need to recognise that she *will* be objectified.

And if she's being objectified, you need to tell me how her objectification furthers feminism.

Because Watson has claimed that photo is furthering the feminist cause.

That's because it IS inconsistent.

Why can't you see that? if objectification of women is everywhere, everything she does is anti feminist, because everything she does will pander to it. Cover up, expose yourself. Mother/whore. career woman playing the male power game. look feminine look butch look sexy look demure.

But whatever else, focus on how everything you do is part of the problem. Because you will be judged and held responsible for a different gender having a favourable bias.And while you distract yourself with worrying about every single thing you do, you're not concentrating on getting into that good job, that position of authority, that place where very few women are.

where you can actually change things.

Edited March 10, 2017 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, feral chile said:

That's because it IS inconsistent.

Why can't you see that? if objectification of women is everywhere, everything she does is anti feminist, because everything she does will pander to it. Cover up, expose yourself. Mother/whore. career woman playing the male power game. look feminine look butch look sexy look demure.

That may or may not be the case.

But right here we're talking about a particular instance where a woman is *choosing* to put herself in front of the male gaze where that objectification will undoubtedly happen, and happen to a much larger degree than if she'd not put that photo out there.

It has the effect of increasing the amount of objectification.

I'm asking you how that increased objectification furthers the feminist cause.

[feral chile]

 

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

That may or may not be the case.

But right here we're talking about a particular instance where a woman is *choosing* to put herself in front of the male gaze where that objectification will undoubtedly happen, and happen to a much larger degree than if she'd not put that photo out there.

It has the effect of increasing the amount of objectification.

I'm asking you how that increased objectification furthers the feminist cause.

why this photo and this woman? Why not Joan Jett? Why not any other photos of her?

I don't really understand why men are so obsessed with Emma Watson, as a straight woman I can't really see it from her looks alone, maybe it's the very fact that she portrayed such a strong character and seems to be one genuinely.

But this seems to have been blown out of all proportion from a bitchy comment made by a journalist.

[eFestivals]

PS:

Watson could have instead chosen to put herself in a sack, where the objectification would have been lesser than from a 'sexy' photo.

Or Watson could have chosen to do a photo shoot on a building site when doing a day's work as a brickie and dressed in a boiler suit like the male brickies - where the objectification would have been lesser, and where the work would be saying "see, as good as a man".

I just can't see how *choosing* to be objectified (or objectified to a greater degree than she might have otherwise been) furthers feminism.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, feral chile said:

 

why this photo and this woman? Why not Joan Jett? Why not any other photos of her?

I don't really understand why men are so obsessed with Emma Watson, as a straight woman I can't really see it from her looks alone, maybe it's the very fact that she portrayed such a strong character and seems to be one genuinely.

But this seems to have been blown out of all proportion from a bitchy comment made by a journalist.

oh ffs.

Why this photo and this woman? Because she *chose* to present herself - to the whole world - as a sexual plaything, when she could have made other choices about how to present herself.

There's fuck all obsession with Watson here. There is only a discussion about what she claimed for herself.

It's been pointed out - by men, and by women, including feminist women - that what she has chosen to do furthers the objectification of women and doesn't lessen it.

You're claiming that Watson was right and it lessens the objectification, yet we're pages in and you've yet to be able to give a reason for how it does.

[feral chile]

58 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I'm merely repeating back at you what you've been saying, and scraping away the bollocks and illogicalities you're putting with it.

If objectification happens and cannot be avoided, then she's put herself up for objectification - whether or not that was her intention.

And if objectification is where it all goes wrong for women, how does adding to the objectification makes things better for women and so positively progress feminism?

 

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

PS:

Watson could have instead chosen to put herself in a sack, where the objectification would have been lesser than from a 'sexy' photo.

Or Watson could have chosen to do a photo shoot on a building site when doing a day's work as a brickie and dressed in a boiler suit like the male brickies - where the objectification would have been lesser, and where the work would be saying "see, as good as a man".

I just can't see how *choosing* to be objectified (or objectified to a greater degree than she might have otherwise been) furthers feminism.

So she should have to disguise her attractiveness?

How does this further feminism?

I don't like wearing make up and high heels, some women won't leave the house without being fully made up.

Why should either of those actions be ties into feminism, apart from the fact that we can wear what the hell we like?

ps arguments would be - I'm conforming to a male stereotype, they're conforming to a male defined stereotype of femininity

or we're trying our best to do what we like. and what suits us and gives us confidence.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, feral chile said:

So she should have to disguise her attractiveness?

That's nothing of anything I've said.

I'm pointing out she's flaunting it.

I'm asking you how - as Watson claims - her objectification via that flaunting further feminism.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I don't like wearing make up and high heels, some women won't leave the house without being fully made up.

Why should either of those actions be ties into feminism

They're not.

Which is my point about Watson.

[feral chile]

Just now, eFestivals said:

That's nothing of anything I've said.

I'm pointing out she's flaunting it.

I'm asking you how - as Watson claims - her objectification via that flaunting further feminism.

Flaunting it

And I'm asking you how judging her for how she looks furthers feminism.

[feral chile]

Just now, eFestivals said:

They're not.

Which is my point about Watson.

so why should what she chose to wear or express herself be an issue then, any more than other women?

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, feral chile said:

Flaunting it

Is she dressed normally?

Or is she dressed up (in her view) especially-sexy so the world's media can take her photo to be published round the world?

Go on, tell me she's not flaunting.

 

Quote

And I'm asking you how judging her for how she looks furthers feminism.

when you have to keep on reverting to the same lie to try to maintain your argument, it should be telling you your argument doesn't stand up.

I'm not judging her on how she looks. I'm judging her on what she said about how she's chosen to look.

Edited March 10, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, feral chile said:

so why should what she chose to wear or express herself be an issue then, any more than other women?

What you should be asking yourself is why should it be more-feminist. :rolleyes:

She's claimed it as a feminist act, something greater than anything normal.

[feral chile]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Is she dressed normally?

Or is she dressed up (in her view) especially-sexy so the world's media can take her photo to be published round the world?

Go on, tell me she's not flaunting.

 

when you have to keep on reverting to the same lie to try to maintain your argument, it should be telling you your argument doesn't stand up.

I'm not judging her on how she looks. I'm judging her on what she said about how she's chosen to look.

what particular comment then? She's said how she chose to look has sod all to do with feminism.

Trying to censor how she looks has a lot do with feminism, however.

Edited March 10, 2017 by feral chile

[feral chile]

8 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

What you should be asking yourself is why should it be more-feminist.

She's claimed it as a feminist act, something greater than anything normal.

I must have missed that then.

'I really don't know what my tits have to do with it' (feminism)

'they think these things are connected'

Edited March 10, 2017 by feral chile

[feral chile]

listen for yourself

 

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, feral chile said:

She's said how she chose to look has sod all to do with feminism.

No, she claimed it as the opposite, a positive force for feminism.

 

[feral chile]

Just now, eFestivals said:

No, she claimed it as the opposite, a positive force for feminism.

 

when did she say that? I've only seen that video of her having to defend herself.

[eFestivals]

8 minutes ago, feral chile said:

listen for yourself

where she says "feminism is about giving people choice".

Which is bollocks, unless any and every choice a woman might make - including to be subjugated by men - is an act of feminism.

I dunno about you, but every feminist I've ever met would laugh their tits off at that.