Tylcer, The Creator was refused entry into the UK because of his lyrics

[eFestivals]

Its institutional racism. He's been singled out as an example, it just happens he is black. Its not the cause of him being singled out but its disproportionately affecting black artists.

 

Thats the thing, its easy to pick out far more people with offensive lyrics where its never been enforced. Just look at Dragonforce's history.. Why not ban Slayer for singing about the holocaust?

No one is stopping you from bringing those to the attention of the authorities if you wish to report them.

It's no solution to say "oh, OK, he's black, and we don't wish to look discriminatory, so we'll let him off", is it? That's no less discriminatory.

 

If people don't wish to be called out for being offensive, the answer is not to be offensive.

 

I don't get why some people think their favourite artist should be let off the law because that fan happens to disagree with the law. There's lots of laws I don't like, but that doesn't get to mean I think I should be exempt from legal consequences if I get caught, that would just be pointlessly fighting reality.

 

The only logical answer to your complaint above would be to insist that greater efforts were made to evenly apply the law - via which Tyler still wouldn't get in.

 

Unless you're thinking that homophobia should be freely expressed within society?

Edited September 1, 2015 by eFestivals

[mrtourette]

Its institutional racism. He's been singled out as an example, it just happens he is black. Its not the cause of him being singled out but its disproportionately affecting black artists.

 

Thats the thing, its easy to pick out far more people with offensive lyrics where its never been enforced. Just look at Dragonforce's history.. Why not ban Slayer for singing about the holocaust?

 

I don't think it's racism, more the persecution of a musical genre due to the aggressive nature of the music/artists and misconceptions about that music's core audience.

 

Personally I think the message taken and the likely effect are important. People have compared it to Rock n Roll Nigger and something like White Riot by The Clash was also critisised, yet either through the lyrics or the artists explanation those songs were quite clearly not offensive. I'd also imagine that the UK gov don't see 50-60 year-old ex-punks as a danger or likely to be incited by such lyrics, whereas rightly or wrongly I can imagine it would quite easy for them to see Tyler's perceived audience (young, urban, lower class) as easily lead and probably incapable of sensing the subtle ironies of him rapping about 'faggots'.

 

Put it this way, in the eyes of a government department who is more likely to leave a gig influenced by the artist in a negative manner - a bunch of Patti Smith fans having just watched her play a set including Rock n Roll Nigger or a bunch of Tyler fans following a gig of his where he'd been repeatedly using the word 'faggot'?

[krisskross]

I don't think it's racism, more the persecution of a musical genre due to the aggressive nature of the music/artists and misconceptions about that music's core audience.

 

Personally I think the message taken and the likely effect are important. People have compared it to Rock n Roll Nigger and something like White Riot by The Clash was also critisised, yet either through the lyrics or the artists explanation those songs were quite clearly not offensive. I'd also imagine that the UK gov don't see 50-60 year-old ex-punks as a danger or likely to be incited by such lyrics, whereas rightly or wrongly I can imagine it would quite easy for them to see Tyler's perceived audience (young, urban, lower class) as easily lead and probably incapable of sensing the subtle ironies of him rapping about 'faggots'.

 

Put it this way, in the eyes of a government department who is more likely to leave a gig influenced by the artist in a negative manner - a bunch of Patti Smith fans having just watched her play a set including Rock n Roll Nigger or a bunch of Tyler fans following a gig of his where he'd been repeatedly using the word 'faggot'?

 

Thats why I used Dragonforce as an example. Mainly young audience though probably more middle/upper class. Songs and lyrics from a previous band (like Odd Future) along the lines of 'Heil Hitler', 'Ni**erslut' and 'Kill all blacks' .. Not subtle / historic / things of their time stuff.

[mrtourette]

I can only guess that as they fly under the mainstream radar they either weren't noticed or weren't considered to be spreading the message to enough people to be worth the effort. 

[krisskross]

The only logical answer to your complaint above would be to insist that greater efforts were made to evenly apply the law - via which Tyler still wouldn't get in.

 

Unless you're thinking that homophobia should be freely expressed within society?

 

Yes, if its law it should be enforced fully. At the moment it looks a bit like the stop and search stats.. You're a bit dodgy..nothing to do with race..honest. 

 

There's always issues of context  - why I mentioned Slayer and Angel of Death. When does singing about something turn into promoting that view. Does Lemmy collecting Nazi memorabilia make him a racist?

[krisskross]

I can only guess that as they fly under the mainstream radar they either weren't noticed or weren't considered to be spreading the message to enough people to be worth the effort. 

 

They get similar gigs / festival line-up positions to Tyler. Does Tyler still sing the songs that have been singled out as being offensive? Did he sing them when he was last in the UK? 

[Yellow_Fellow]

giving homophobia a platform?

It isn't homophobia, and even it was, that isn't a reason not to let someone into your country.

[eFestivals]

Yes, if its law it should be enforced fully. At the moment it looks a bit like the stop and search stats.. You're a bit dodgy..nothing to do with race..honest. 

 

There's always issues of context  - why I mentioned Slayer and Angel of Death. When does singing about something turn into promoting that view. Does Lemmy collecting Nazi memorabilia make him a racist?

 

If you're wanting to know what falls within and outside of the laws, read the laws.

 

If you want to know who rules of entry apply to, that's non-Brits - so Lemmy couldn't be denied entry even if he was breaking the law; he'd instead be prosecuted for breaking the law.

Beyond that, no laws are "fully enforced". Some crimes never come to the old bill's attention, and of those that do they don't always catch the perp.

 

It's no different with the border authorities.

[Yellow_Fellow]

Unless you're thinking that homophobia should be freely expressed within society?

Oh it absolutely should. And it should be freely opposed. It isn't the governments job to tell us what to think.

[eFestivals]

It isn't homophobia, and even it was, that isn't a reason not to let someone into your country.

 

As i've pointed out, I know nothing of Tyler and I'm accusing him of nothing. I'm simply pointing out what the law is and some practicalities around the working of those laws.

 

And keeping homophobes out is a fair reason to me.

 

Why do you think homophobes should be let in? Don't you care about what they do?

[eFestivals]

Oh it absolutely should. And it should be freely opposed. It isn't the governments job to tell us what to think.

 

The govt doesn't. "The people" have told the govt what basic rules of decency they'd like applied.

(yes, in an imperfect way within the limits of our democratic processes .. nothing of that negates there being wide support)

 

Having lived in far worse times than now, I can assure you that it is not a better world to have people abused and more in the streets simply for their race or sexuality.

 

If you think it makes a better world, I pity you.

 

PS: anyway, the govt is not telling you what you are allowed to think, they're telling you what you are not allowed to express., If you want to express homophobia or support others to do so, you're going to find I hold the same attitude.

Edited September 1, 2015 by eFestivals

[Yellow_Fellow]

The govt doesn't. "The people" have told the govt what basic rules of decency they'd like applied.

(yes, in an imperfect way within the limits of our democratic processes .. nothing of that negates there being wide support)

Having lived in far worse times than now, I can assure you that it is not a better world to have people abused and more in the streets simply for their race or sexuality.

If you think it makes a better world, I pity you.

PS: anyway, the govt is not telling you what you are allowed to think, they're telling you what you are not allowed to express., If you want to express homophobia or support others to do so, you're going to find I hold the same attitude.

This is the bizarre way of your argument Neil, you've somehow conflated having lyrics including the depictions of homophobia, to any homophobic act. You've actually dared to try and suggest Tyler is comparable to someone killing someone at pride. And your fall back is that you've abstracted it to "it's just the rules, I'm feigning ignorance"

You're oversimplifying the argument to the point at which nothing of any value can be said.

[krisskross]

If you're wanting to know what falls within and outside of the laws, read the laws.

 

If you want to know who rules of entry apply to, that's non-Brits - so Lemmy couldn't be denied entry even if he was breaking the law; he'd instead be prosecuted for breaking the law.

Beyond that, no laws are "fully enforced". Some crimes never come to the old bill's attention, and of those that do they don't always catch the perp.

 

It's no different with the border authorities.

 

Of course no rules are fully enforced - because evidence is key. When there are videos and records and interviews easily found its not exactly difficult.

[eFestivals]

This is the bizarre way of your argument Neil, you've somehow conflated having lyrics including the depictions of homophobia, to any homophobic act. You've actually dared to try and suggest Tyler is comparable to someone killing someone at pride. And your fall back is that you've abstracted it to "it's just the rules, I'm feigning ignorance"

You're oversimplifying the argument to the point at which nothing of any value can be said.

I am saying homophobia is wrong, at all levels.

Your failure to grasp that is all your own issues, in trying to justify homophobia.

[eFestivals]

Of course no rules are fully enforced - because evidence is key. When there are videos and records and interviews easily found its not exactly difficult.

So in the same vein, the police should monitor all twitter posts and act on everything they see before waiting for a complaint?

 

While that might be the perfect world it's certainly not the real world.

 

And your argument pretty much spins out as you arguing against the real world.

 

Meanwhile I'm shocked at people arguing in favour of the expression of homophobia - because that's what you're doing.

Edited September 1, 2015 by eFestivals

[Yellow_Fellow]

I am saying homophobia is wrong, at all levels.

Your failure to grasp that is all your own issues, in trying to justify homophobia.

No, once again Neil you're oversimplifying. I believe free expression is justified. And that covers hate speech. Free speech doesn't end when your feelings get hurt.

[krisskross]

So in the same vein, the police should monitor all twitter posts and act on everything they see before waiting for a complaint?

 

While that might be the perfect world it's certainly not the real world.

 

And your argument pretty much spins out as you arguing against the real world.

 

Meanwhile I'm shocked at people arguing in favour of the expression of homophobia - because that's what you're doing.

 

No, but the border force should spend 5 mins in google before granting a business visa for anyone as that's what they've done for Tylor.

 

I pretty much agree with him being barred. Its just been handled very badly.

[GlastoSimon]

What I don't particularly understand is why the likes of Eminem etc. are allowed in if this guy isn't. It's public knowledge that some of his lyrics aren't 100% socially acceptable, and he's very much bigger than Tyler - Wembley Stadium a year or so ago wasn't it?

 

I can understand certain niche acts going 'under the radar' in similar cases, but Eminem is huge in comparison.

Edited September 1, 2015 by GlastoSimon

[eFestivals]

No, once again Neil you're oversimplifying. I believe free expression is justified. And that covers hate speech. Free speech doesn't end when your feelings get hurt.

 

Fine. Society has decided differently. Get used to it.

 

Meanwhile, back on planet earth, what does end via the laws we have is latently expressed homophobia and racism ... and I can find you plenty of people who are much happier to have their feelings hurt to a lesser extent than used to happen when the law matched your views....

 

But let's pretend those people don't count, yeah? Let's go back to having blacks habitually called n***** when they walk down the street - because that *IS* the effect of what you advocate.

Edited September 1, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

What I don't particularly understand is why the likes of Eminem etc. are allowed in if this guy isn't. It's public knowledge that some of his lyrics aren't 100% socially acceptable, and he's very much bigger than Tyler - Wembley Stadium a year or so ago wasn't it?

 

I can understand certain niche acts going 'under the radar' in similar cases, but Eminem is huge in comparison.

 

whether or not Eminem's lyrics go outside the law is naff all to do with whether Tyler's do or not.

 

If Tyler has over-stepped the mark then the law has been correctly applied. End of!

 

You, like anyone else, are free to bring the authorities attention to any instances where the law should be applied.

[Mash011]

The govt doesn't. "The people" have told the govt what basic rules of decency they'd like applied.

(yes, in an imperfect way within the limits of our democratic processes .. nothing of that negates there being wide support)

 

How is this an argument? "The people" voted for the nazis.

[jonodillieono]

The people also voted for Cameron

[mrtourette]

They get similar gigs / festival line-up positions to Tyler. Does Tyler still sing the songs that have been singled out as being offensive? Did he sing them when he was last in the UK? 

 

I have generally been agreeing with you but you're twisting the situation now. They may have similar festival positions but look at the festivals and the audience, they are no way comparable to the mainstream exposure that Tyler is getting. Even if you take their most 'mainstream' slot second on the third stage at Download is not comparable to subbing the tent at R&L.

[jonodillieono]

whether or not Eminem's lyrics go outside the law is naff all to do with whether Tyler's do or not.

 

If Tyler has over-stepped the mark then the law has been correctly applied. End of!

 

You, like anyone else, are free to bring the authorities attention to any instances where the law should be applied.

Does Tyler even perform any of those songs anymore?

Somehow I feel like if I phoned the police to tell them that Eminem has a song that contains these lyrics which he performs at every show would not result in him being banned from the country

 

My words are like a dagger with a jagged edge

That will stab you in the head

Whether you're a fag or les'

Or the homo-sex, hermaph', or a trans'a'vest'

Pants or dress, hate fags? the answer's "yes"

Homophobic? nah, you're just hetero phobic

Starin' at my jeans, watchin' my genitals bulgin' (ooh!)

That's my motherfuckin' balls, you'd better let go of 'em

They belong in my scrotum

You'll never get hold of 'em

Hey, it's me, versace

Whoops, somebody shot me!

And I was just checkin' the mail

Get it? checkin' the 'male'?

 

[eFestivals]

How is this an argument? "The people" voted for the nazis.

 

I've given better arguments, but you go for Godwin. Very well done, that certainly raised the quality of the discussion.