Don't vote Tory

[eFestivals]

Just now, zahidf said:

The 'Dementia tax' is going down really badly apparently. I wouldnt be surprised if it gets dropped sharpish

because taxing people who need their money is a better idea than taxing those who don't....?

The problem isn't 'the dementia tax' it's that all inheritance isn't taxed to fuck.

[zahidf]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

because taxing people who need their money is a better idea than taxing those who don't....?

The problem isn't 'the dementia tax' it's that all inheritance isn't taxed to fuck.

Al capone was fucked over by his taxes. Anything which stops a massive tory majority is good for me.

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, zahidf said:

Al capone was fucked over by his taxes. Anything which stops a massive tory majority is good for me.

because championing inheritance is a socialist thing? Because asking people with unneeded wealth to pay taxes for social welfare is something the evil tories do?

[clarkete]

26 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

And you've just proven my point.

Getting the tories out does nothing by itself. Only doing things better than the tories is something better than the tories - and by default being not-a-tory is not better than a tory.

It's about what you can do, and nothing else. Venezuela - once lauded by Jezza as the solution to everything  - isn't run by tories, and it's fucked.

Urgh.

What happened to you?

[Lucy92]

Personally, I hate statements like 'don't vote for X'. I don't mind who anyone votes for, as long as they've read all the facts and made an informed choice about who they are voting for. I've seen so much bullying online about who people who are voting for (from all sides of the bench) and it just makes me feel a bit sad, politics is all about having choice and as long as someone has understood the implications of their vote I don't see why anyone should be vindicated so. Just my two cents for a Monday morning ha! 

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, clarkete said:

Urgh.

What happened to you?

I want something better, not a fantasy of something better. You get something better by being better, not by self-anointing yourself as better.

After all, the problem with the tories winning happens via the same fantasy of something better. Doing the same idiot thing only makes someone the same idiot.

[clarkete]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I want something better, not a fantasy of something better. You get something better by being better, not by self-anointing yourself as better.

After all, the problem with the tories winning happens via the same fantasy of something better. Doing the same idiot thing only makes someone the same idiot.

Indeed, hence even though they're the worst party for education, social care and the NHS, the same idiots are  voting for the tories. 

I don't have the patience for the political discussions here I'm  afraid, but when I dip in you're always presenting a counterpoint, usually suggesting the tories aren't so bloody bad 

[phillyfaddle]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

The problem isn't 'the dementia tax' it's that all inheritance isn't taxed to fuck.

Like the young Duke of Westminster, who just inherited a fortune of nearly £10bn and paid £0 tax on it (he should have paid £4bn according to the rules everyone else has to abide by). After decades of government policies actively encouraging people to buy property, the success of which can be seen in the massively inflated prices in the housing market, there is a significant amount of wealth tied up in bricks and mortar, which should be subject to some level of taxation.

However, this "dementia tax" looks like it could be another financial scam-in-waiting. There is talk in the City that the insurance industry was approached by the government recently (not for the first time) with the aim of creating a new product for a "new market". You won't have to sell your house, provided you buy an insurance product to cover the cost of your future social care....but the insurance company would have a lien on the house and could force a sale if it wanted to, to recover costs. To encourage the industry to create these products, the government agreed that there would be no cap on the premiums. Clearly waiting until after the election to make that particular announcement (will be private pensions all over again - another total scam). 

So the "dementia tax" is not just a raid on inherited wealth, it's also yet another means for the Tories (and their City donors) to make even more money off the backs of "ordinary working people". Snouts in another public trough!!

Edited May 22, 2017 by phillyfaddle

[Thunderstruck]

I have no idea who I'm going to vote for this time around. Don't like TM and don't trust Labour not to waste money on pointless policies like free school meals and free uni education for everybody. I think I'll probably vote on the environment so likely the greens.

[mjsell]

1 hour ago, clarkete said:

I don't have the patience for the political discussions here I'm  afraid, but when I dip in you're always presenting a counterpoint, usually suggesting the tories aren't so bloody bad 

You should get yourself over to the General News dicussions thread, you'd be in for a real treat

Counterpoints lead to fuirther discussion, Neil likes further discussions.

This is not me saying that some of those counterpoints are wrong - I agree with: 

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

I want something better, not a fantasy of something better.

 

[mjsell]

1 minute ago, Thunderstruck said:

I have no idea who I'm going to vote for this time around. Don't like TM and don't trust Labour not to waste money on pointless policies like free school meals and free uni education for everybody. I think I'll probably vote on the environment so likely the greens.

Just out of interest, why are free school meals a pointless policy in your opinion?

[eFestivals]

14 minutes ago, phillyfaddle said:

However, this "dementia tax" looks like it could be another financial scam-in-waiting.

Yep, it could be.

But instead of pointing that out, a MUCH bigger and more-useful thing to point out is the outrage of inheritance. The defence against the dementia tax is turnout to be a defence of inheritance - one of the worst things in society, one of the biggest causes of inequality, the whole thing which sustains the unfairness which exists.

Don't defend inheritance, attack it. Getting the tories to back down over their proposals will enshrine it, not end it.

Edited May 22, 2017 by eFestivals

[dimus]

For those using the argument (which is incorrect anyway) that Corbyn was a terrorist sympathiser.

http://evolvepolitics.com/realise-current-conservative-politician-literally-member-ira-right/

 

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, clarkete said:

I don't have the patience for the political discussions here I'm  afraid, but when I dip in you're always presenting a counterpoint, usually suggesting the tories aren't so bloody bad 

There's worse things than the tories. 

Like your mates in the LibDems who enabled them to do many bad things that they wouldn't have otherwise been able to do, for example.

Edited May 22, 2017 by eFestivals

[Thunderstruck]

8 minutes ago, mjsell said:

Just out of interest, why are free school meals a pointless policy in your opinion?

I just think there should be free school meals for people who can't afford them - I don't get why they should be free for everybody?

[mjsell]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

There's worse things than the tories. 

Like your mates in the LibDems who enabled them to do many bad things, for example.

Come off it. That doesnt even make sense.

[Mardy]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

I want something better, not a fantasy of something better. You get something better by being better, not by self-anointing yourself as better.

After all, the problem with the tories winning happens via the same fantasy of something better. Doing the same idiot thing only makes someone the same idiot.

I think, at the moment, even tiny, incremental, marginal improvements trump all other considerations, I'd like a truly progressive fairer society, but that's a pipe dream, and today I'll take free school meals for kids and not privatising the NHS as a starting point

[dimus]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

There's worse things than the tories. 

 

Cancer.

AIDS.

Midges.

Really loud scousers who always seem to camp by you and chat shit all night.

Burnley.

 

Can't think of anything else.

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, Mardy said:

I think, at the moment, even tiny, incremental, marginal improvements trump all other considerations, I'd like a truly progressive fairer society, but that's a pipe dream, and today I'll take free school meals for kids and not privatising the NHS as a starting point

but they're not the starting point. They're part of a truly massive proposed transformation of British society, where supposedly 95% will notice no negative difference onto them from that truly massive proposed transformation.

Which, i think, is more than a little unlikely. You cannot transform everything of society without society noticing, and you cannot divert resources without people noticing they've had resources diverted away from them.

That doesn't mean I don't want it, it means I'd like it sold honestly - because a lie is a lie and the difference between the lie and reality is very big.

[DeanoL]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

not really true. Network Rail are in charge of the timetabling.

But they have to work within the context of existing franchise agreements. They can suddenly demand that Virgin trains run more services along one route and less on another. These multi-year deals are pretty locked in and are either literally or practically impossible to change.

Quote

As I've already pointed out, there's very little that can be changed because the system is running at capacity for much of the time.

Depends how we're defining "capacity" - in terms of trains on tracks, sure. But in terms of people on trains? It's easy to say the network is at capacity and all the standard class seats are full on peak time trains between Brighton and London, but that does account for the fact that first class is half empty and only holds half the number of people per carriage to start with. And consists of two thirds of the train. But it's kept that way because it's more profitable. Not because it serves the public better.

There's lots of good reasons to nationalise rail, but an improvement just by the fact of nationalisation isn't one of them - and your take on how everything will suddenly be wonderful is why politicians shy away from doing it. 

I specifically didn't say that, in fact I said "It'd be a big job". There isn't a magic fix, but equally it wouldn't be exactly the same but with the tiny profit margin handed back to the customer. You change the entire objective of the railways from "make money" to "best serve the people" and you change the optimal approach to so many different elements of the system: train capacity, timetabling, ticketing, coach classification, etc. Granted, it'll take a long time to turn back decades of movement towards the former objective. But we'd at least be moving in the right direction.

15 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Yep, it could be.

But instead of pointing that out, a MUCH bigger and more-useful thing to point out is the outrage of inheritance. The defence against the dementia tax is turnout to be a defence of inheritance - one of the worst things in society, one of the biggest causes of inequality, the whole thing which sustains the unfairness which exists.

Don't defend inheritance, attack it. Getting the tories to back down over their proposals will enshrine it, not end it.

Yup, but the problem is the angry younger person vote that Labour are going for is pretty much dependent on inheritance. They got none of the things their parents did - affordable houses, free university education etc. and for many inheritance is literally the only shot they're ever going to have at owning their own home.

(And no that doesn't account for the changes you'd see in the housing market but I'm not saying this is a logical reaction - just the visceral response you'll get from a lot of people).

[DeanoL]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

but they're not the starting point. They're part of a truly massive proposed transformation of British society, where supposedly 95% will notice no negative difference onto them from that truly massive proposed transformation.

Which, i think, is more than a little unlikely. You cannot transform everything of society without society noticing, and you cannot divert resources without people noticing they've had resources diverted away from them.

That doesn't mean I don't want it, it means I'd like it sold honestly - because a lie is a lie and the difference between the lie and reality is very big.

But the problem is that the privatisation of the NHS is being sold in the same way by the Tories. That it'll make things better and have no negative impact. No-one ever talks about the downside of their policies in elections as it's pretty much a guaranteed way to lose.

[evilduck]

23 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

I just think there should be free school meals for people who can't afford them - I don't get why they should be free for everybody?

The means to test who should qualify for free lunches can be expensive and sometimes inaccurate, also you can have rich parents who don't give a shit about their kids and still send them to school with no food. Giving all kids free lunches puts them all on an even start.

[Bogotazo]

On 2017-4-19 at 10:27 AM, Zac Quinn said:

The main things about a hard Brexit are curtailing immigration and pushing for nationalism regardless of the economic consequences, totally incompatiable with left wing ideology. Soft Brexit could in theory line up with left wing values - and as such that's what Labour are campaigning on - but given the Torys are in power and will be for the foreseeable future, supporting anything which will give them undiluted power to further wreck the country is pure madness from a leftie POV

The EU is not left wing. When they destroyed the left wing Greeks attempts to go against austerity that wasn't left wing. When they make nationalising or subsidising industries impossible that's not left wing. The trade deals which benefit big corporations at the expense of the workers are not left wing. TTIP giving power to big corporations over the people and their democratically elected governments isn't left wing.

There's a very strong left wing argument for leaving the EU. People just don't understand what left wing means anymore. It's no longer about workers rights so much as reading the guardian and being dragged into the nonsense immigrant arguments that the right are making. Immigration is neither here nor there when talking about where you stand on the political spectrum. You can be a left wing nationalist just the same as you can be a right wing globalist and the EU works mostly as the latter. It's funny, I've even seen right wingers from the UK referring to Angela Merkel as a socialist due to her immigration policies. They obviously don't realise that Angela Merkel is the leader of the German version of the tories.

If anything the left should have been the ones leading the charge to get out of the EU. Originally the left were the ones who opposed the EU most. Right up until the 90s when labour turned into "New Labour" (aka tory light)  and suddenly it all switched over.

Now there's an actual left winger leading the Labour with actual left wing views and all the people who consider themselves tory hating left wingers don't understand it. The people who went out protesting Brexit due to hating tories and being for the masses are the same people who are in here talking about how bad Corbyn is because he has a silly beard and isn't a great talker. Never mind the actual politics behind it. These people moan on about the Daily Mail etc. yet are just as susceptible to media bollocks as any UKIP voter. You know the sort, the studenty type, the "I read the guardian and think Owen Jones is a great mind" type, the "I don't know much about much but that's BAD cos tory" type, the avocado eating middle class but still a "socialist" even though they don't even know what it means type  . The type to say that Corbyn is unelectable and then support the next neoliberal type to come in. The type to support labour moving back to the "centre" even though it'll just be moving back to the interests of the big corporations over the people. 

 

Well that turned into a bit of a rant. Basically let's all be m8s, vote Corbyn, this is the first chance for an actual meaningful anti tory, anti privatisation change that we've had in decades.

Or don't vote Corbyn, whatevs I'm not the boss of you and he can be a bit of a fanny.

[clarkete]

33 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

There's worse things than the tories. 

Like your mates in the LibDems who enabled them to do many bad things that they wouldn't have otherwise been able to do, for example.

Worse?   I agree there is, but ha ha, you think what happened after 2010 is worse than what happened after 2015? 

[mjsell]

31 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

I just think there should be free school meals for people who can't afford them - I don't get why they should be free for everybody?

Have you ever worked in a school?