Don't vote Tory

[babyblade41]

1 minute ago, oneeye said:

Teressa was struggling in the Andrew Neil interview to explain where £8bn would come from to finance their plans; money tree?

Talking of liabilities, Boris, Hunt are 2 of the biggest clowns in power atm.

The Tory Party are a horrid bunch; remove those rose tinted glasses and take a look around.

I believe for me and my future and how I have worked to secure my future a tory vote is in my best interests and long term ., I accept it's not going to be everybody's view point and can understand that is everyones right to think differently.

When I was a lot younger my view was different , but this is what I genuinely believe this to be right for my vote 

[Mr.Tease]

23 minutes ago, arcade fireman said:

....next time round. I think Labour have fought a good campaign in a lot of ways but the gap is still 9-14 points. There's only so many voters who will turn. 

But I do think May calling this election wasn't the great idea she thought it was. She could've hung on til 2020, the Tories would've won anyway and Labour would've eaten themselves some more. 

Now the narrative has been shifted firmly away from Brexit for the first time in a year, some real gaps are emerging in her domestic policy and Labour may come out of this election a lot stronger than how they entered it, depending on what happens in the aftermath. 

I do think whoever is in charge of labour's media policy has done a very good job- they said the tactic was to use the impartiality rules for election coverage by not inviting the print press to any event, instead they invite the tv media who are much more regulated, and the local press.

The national press then have to use what the TVs media give them- makes it harder for the Tory press to sabotage things (before they would all follow Corbin and pounce on a trivial mess up and all run with it)

[oneeye]

8 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

I believe for me and my future and how I have worked to secure my future a tory vote is in my best interests and long term ., I accept it's not going to be everybody's view point and can understand that is everyones right to think differently.

When I was a lot younger my view was different , but this is what I genuinely believe this to be right for my vote 

Oh my; you do need to take those glasses off, honestly, take a good look. 

Edited May 22, 2017 by oneeye

[arcade fireman]

One thing I have enjoyed about this episode is giving the Tories a taste of their own medicine. To an extent I think Theresa May was trying to do something principled and trying to do the right thing - I disagree hugely with her targeting specifically the families of those with a long term chronic condition needing social care (dementia being the obvious example) over those families in other circumstances. But the idea of that the value of people's homes should be considered for means testing as an asset is a reasonable one considering how much money wealthy people have tied up in property. She was proposing a policy which would arguably impact on Tory voters more. The social care funding gap needs to be addressed somehow and she was taking a chance because she had a huge poll lead. 

But how many times have Labour tried to do the right thing in the last few decades only to be hit with a barrage of abuse from the Tories? So many times we have seen Labour politicians squirm on evening sofas trying to defend well meaning policies in the face of the Tory media machine. So today was a good day. 

[EasyUserName]

8 minutes ago, oneeye said:

Oh my; you do need to take those glasses off, honestly, take a good look. 

I think you might be shutting down debate with comments put in that way.

 

I was just reading Private Eye over my tea earlier (I cannot recommend that magazine enough (if you like depressing yourself about how rubbish the world truly is!), even though it is not perfect in itself).

 

I was reading about a school in London that is struggling financially – rather apt as you mentioned education as being a key issue to you (& one where the Tories are selling you short).  It was interesting, only because the school was potentially going to go under due to a PFI deal signed in 2006 which would mean they would pay over £200 million for £56 million of work done at the time (for this school and a number of others). 

 

That’s a Labour deal (at the time). 

 

I think this thread could do with some more debate and less “Tory=bad” stuff, since it is clearly not the case that one party is better than another at all things when you take a historical view.

 

 

[EasyUserName]

6 minutes ago, arcade fireman said:

One thing I have enjoyed about this episode is giving the Tories a taste of their own medicine. To an extent I think Theresa May was trying to do something principled and trying to do the right thing - I disagree hugely with her targeting specifically the families of those with a long term chronic condition needing social care (dementia being the obvious example) over those families in other circumstances. But the idea of that the value of people's homes should be considered for means testing as an asset is a reasonable one considering how much money wealthy people have tied up in property. She was proposing a policy which would arguably impact on Tory voters more. The social care funding gap needs to be addressed somehow and she was taking a chance because she had a huge poll lead. 

But how many times have Labour tried to do the right thing in the last few decades only to be hit with a barrage of abuse from the Tories? So many times we have seen Labour politicians squirm on evening sofas trying to defend well meaning policies in the face of the Tory media machine. So today was a good day. 

I thought the same thing.  It's a shame, as it is bringing things in to talk about that usually get shut-down straight away.  I liked the "so the Labour party is setting your policy now" comment. Pity the idea will be dropped.

 

That's elections for you though.

 

Will be amusing to see what the Mail has to say about it - Tory Policy (must be good) - hurts old people (must be bad) - Labour supporting removing the policy (er, is that bad or good?).  Tricky one for them. 

[babyblade41]

I suppose we will have to wait until the votes are in , it will be interesting to see the outcome and to see how the polls change closer to election date 

[Ricci's Special Kebabs]

10 minutes ago, oneeye said:

Oh my; you do need to take those glasses off, honestly, take a good look. 

You don't know that person and have no right to try and dictate who they should vote for. What is good for you may not necessarily be good for them. 

I will be voting Labour, but the way some Labour supporters go on trying to shame other people for their electoral choices almost turns me off voting for them.

Pigeonholing a person is part of the problem, it doesn't solve anything.

 

[DeanoL]

28 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

I believe for me and my future and how I have worked to secure my future a tory vote is in my best interests and long term ., I accept it's not going to be everybody's view point and can understand that is everyones right to think differently.

Same here.

But I'm voting Labour because I'm choosing not to vote in my own self interest.

[oneeye]

1 minute ago, Ricci's Special Kebabs said:

You don't know that person and have no right to try and dictate who they should vote for. What is good for you may not necessarily be good for them. 

I will be voting Labour, but the way some Labour supporters go on trying to shame other people for their electoral choices almost turns me off voting for them.

Pigeonholing a person is part of the problem, it doesn't solve anything.

 

Fair comment, I didn't mean to pidgeon hole nor shame; I apologise 

[babyblade41]

Just now, Ricci's Special Kebabs said:

You don't know that person and have no right to try and dictate who they should vote for. What is good for you may not necessarily be good for them. 

I will be voting Labour, but the way some Labour supporters go on trying to shame other people for their electoral choices almost turns me off voting for them.

Pigeonholing a person is part of the problem, it doesn't solve anything.

 

My youngest daughter will be voting labour, my FIL has dementia, my other daughter is in a vulnerable position , so you can see I have not taken my decision lightly.  One daughter voted for Brexit one was a remainer 

I'm thankful that they both have chosen their decision and not just following their parental voting pattern .

 

We have many a debate and on occasion we have all had to agree one anothers reasons are probably more beneficial , debate is good, mud slinging isn't.

Debating is how we learn and the best way to change someones perspective , a slanging match just digs ones heels further into the mud 

[jobleakley1]

12 minutes ago, Ricci's Special Kebabs said:

You don't know that person and have no right to try and dictate who they should vote for. What is good for you may not necessarily be good for them. 

I will be voting Labour, but the way some Labour supporters go on trying to shame other people for their electoral choices almost turns me off voting for them.

Pigeonholing a person is part of the problem, it doesn't solve anything.

 

You should not be ashamed of voting for any political party.

Your vote is a reflection of you as a person and in my lifetime, that has generally been Labour putting forward policies to support society at a cost of higher taxes, which I repeat I am prepared to pay and Conservatives reducing taxes, particularly for higher earners and businesses, whilst reducing spending on things like schools and the NHS. They of course can afford private education and healthcare and are very keen to introduce more of that into the system.

Until their policies change I could never vote Tory. In my view they are a party designed for the wealthy by the wealthy and are supported by people who care only about themselves rather than society as a whole which is a very sad state of affairs.

[Ricci's Special Kebabs]

7 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

My youngest daughter will be voting labour, my FIL has dementia, my other daughter is in a vulnerable position , so you can see I have not taken my decision lightly.  One daughter voted for Brexit one was a remainer 

I'm thankful that they both have chosen their decision and not just following their parental voting pattern .

 

We have many a debate and on occasion we have all had to agree one anothers reasons are probably more beneficial , debate is good, mud slinging isn't.

Debating is how we learn and the best way to change someones perspective , a slanging match just digs ones heels further into the mud 

Great post. 

The tag of this post somes up way politics is going "Scum".

If you vote Tory you/you are voting for scum... ridiculous comment. Its the same way Labour supporters are now labelled communist looneys. There's no substance to it.

Stop the mudslinging and educate.

[babyblade41]

2 minutes ago, Ricci's Special Kebabs said:

Great post. 

The tag of this post somes up way politics is going "Scum".

If you vote Tory you/you are voting for scum... ridiculous comment. Its the same way Labour supporters are now labelled communist looneys. There's no substance to it.

Stop the mudslinging and educate.

my sentiments too... thank you 

 

[Ricci's Special Kebabs]

1 minute ago, jobleakley1 said:

You should not be ashamed of voting for any political party.

Your vote is a reflection of you as a person and in my lifetime, that has generally been Labour putting forward policies to support society at a cost of higher taxes, which I repeat I am prepared to pay and Conservatives reducing taxes, particularly for higher earners and businesses, whilst reducing spending on things like schools and the NHS. They of course can afford private education and healthcare and are very keen to introduce more of that into the system.

Until their policies change I could never vote Tory. In my view they are a party designed for the wealthy by the wealthy and are supported by people who care only about themselves rather than society as a whole which is a very sad state of affairs.

I'm in agreement to most of your post but saying people who vote Tory only care for themselves is a bit of a narrow viewpoint in my opinion.

Not all Tory voters are selfish! 

 

[arcade fireman]

3 minutes ago, Ricci's Special Kebabs said:

Great post. 

The tag of this post somes up way politics is going "Scum".

If you vote Tory you/you are voting for scum... ridiculous comment. Its the same way Labour supporters are now labelled communist looneys. There's no substance to it.

Stop the mudslinging and educate.

This will be a very pertinent point for the next few years. This will likely be the first election for a long time where there isn't a big third party getting 15-20% of the vote. Previously the Labour/Tories wanting to win an election could pick off a few of the Government's voters and also pick off a few of the third party voters (usually Lib Dem) and win. It would be hoped some of the Government's voters may go over to, say, the Lib Dems too, so depressing their total further. So Labour voters slagging off Tory voters wouldn't really matter that much as they wouldn't need to turn that many Tories - and vice versa. 

However at the next election Labour will need to target voters who voted Tory in 2017 far, far more than other voters. UKIP probably won't get much worse, whatever happens there'll be voters unhappy we've given too many concessions to Brussels. Lib Dems won't get much worse than 8%, there'll always be some room for a centrist party. There really isn't much of a third party vote to squeeze. So rather than calling Tory voters stupid or selfish, Labour supporters will need to at least try and take into account some of the reasons why people voted Tory this time round. 

[oneeye]

4 minutes ago, Ricci's Special Kebabs said:

 

Stop the mudslinging and educate.

This should start with our MPs.

i totally agree with you and bb41, just my frustrations spilling over.

i could go into my family background and reasons for not voting Tory but all too personal to share. 

 

[jobleakley1]

Just now, Ricci's Special Kebabs said:

I'm in agreement to most of your post but saying people who vote Tory only care for themselves is a bit of a narrow viewpoint in my opinion.

Not all Tory voters are selfish! 

 

They present selfish policies and ones that I'm sure I personally would benefit from financially, but there are more important things than ones finances.

Not all Torys are selfish, but they support selfish policies which is basically the same.

Nye Bevans quotes about them are very prescient and still true 70 years on.

 

[jobleakley1]

3 minutes ago, arcade fireman said:

This will be a very pertinent point for the next few years. This will likely be the first election for a long time where there isn't a big third party getting 15-20% of the vote. Previously the Labour/Tories wanting to win an election could pick off a few of the Government's voters and also pick off a few of the third party voters (usually Lib Dem) and win. It would be hoped some of the Government's voters may go over to, say, the Lib Dems too, so depressing their total further. So Labour voters slagging off Tory voters wouldn't really matter that much as they wouldn't need to turn that many Tories - and vice versa. 

However at the next election Labour will need to target voters who voted Tory in 2017 far, far more than other voters. UKIP probably won't get much worse, whatever happens there'll be voters unhappy we've given too many concessions to Brussels. Lib Dems won't get much worse than 8%, there'll always be some room for a centrist party. There really isn't much of a third party vote to squeeze. So rather than calling Tory voters stupid or selfish, Labour supporters will need to at least try and take into account some of the reasons why people voted Tory this time round. 

But what exactly are those reasons?

[OneLittleFish]

I truly hope that no matter the outcome of the election, that the whole concept of left wing politics is no longer used as an insult. The amount of times I've tried to have a reasoned debate with people and been called "PC", a "do gooder", "liberal" etc is ridiculous.

 

I'm voting Labour as I couldn't be prouder of how Corbyn has handled himself under immense scrutiny and pressure. A really dignified man.

[The Clearest Blue]

I grew up in a very low income family, I remember seeing the changes in governments policies on benefits directly impact my parents and at times fill them with fear on how they will be able to cope. My parents made it work (with help from relatives) and I know people have had much worse childhoods, but a single change in government policy by some arrogant, overreaching politician can take away a parents ability to feed their children. I know well enough which party has the interests of low income families at its heart and I'm lucky enough to now have a very well paid job and I say this with all honesty, I would happily pay higher taxes, it would not bother me.

[Mr.Tease]

57 minutes ago, Ricci's Special Kebabs said:

Great post. 

The tag of this post somes up way politics is going "Scum".

If you vote Tory you/you are voting for scum... ridiculous comment. Its the same way Labour supporters are now labelled communist looneys. There's no substance to it.

Stop the mudslinging and educate.

There's something very passive aggressive though in insisting everyone keep it civil. Voting conservative can really mess up your life if you are poor- people on disability benefits got horrendous treatment and many were driven to destitution and despair. It was not just an intellectual debate for them. Because of Tory cuts I lost two jobs (not in the same league but I did get shafted by them), because Tory voters didn't want to pay more tax.

Sorry, but if you do something that harms or impacts others because life will work out better for you then expect some anger and stop pretending you're too sensitive to handle it.

Its like me coming over, robbing your house and dedicating on your kitchen table, then saying "whoa there, why so angry and insulting? Can't you just respect my decisions? And debate it with me rather than screaming abuse?"

Edited May 22, 2017 by Mr.Tease

[EasyUserName]

4 minutes ago, jobleakley1 said:

They present selfish policies and ones that I'm sure I personally would benefit from financially, but there are more important things than ones finances.

Not all Torys are selfish, but they support selfish policies which is basically the same.

Nye Bevans quotes about them are very prescient and still true 70 years on.

 

If I can suggest an interesting book to read (if you've not read it already)?

 

It's not about UK parties, but it does have an interesting take on how people behave when under different policies.  It's called "Poor Economics" and is basically a study of how aid money is spent and how people react to that money at the sharp-end of the stick.  It's written in an easy-to-read style, and the reactions to people getting aid is fascinating in how it is counter-intuitive to how you would expect them to react. 

 

The reason I mention it is that I would summarise the two UK parties approaches as Labour trying to achieve an outcome with social policies (such as benefits and the like) whilst Tories trying to achieve the same outcome with economic policies. 

 

The book shows the impact of opposite policies (not too different to Labour & Tory approaches to the same problem) and how people react.  It’s very interesting. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/apr/22/abhijit-banerjee-poor-chances-minimal

[zahidf]

May was TERRIBLE with Andrew Neil just now. No wonder she dodged the debates...

[EasyUserName]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

 ... Sorry, but if you do something that harms or impacts others because life will work out better for you then expect some anger and stop pretending you're too sensitive to handle it.

Its like me coming over, robbing your house and dedicating on your kitchen table, then saying "whoa there, why so angry and insulting? Can't you just respect my decisions? And debate it with me rather than screaming abuse?"

Isn't that an argument as to how say, a 1%-er who pays more income tax than any other income bracket might feel (in a loose way)?