Don't vote Tory

[OneLittleFish]

I've also seen the effects of dementia on elderly family members as well. The last time I saw my gran she'd lost the ability to form words and all of a sudden she became very agitated and started trying to shout angrily at both me and my dad. It's a horrible, horrible condition and affected my dad beyond belief to see his mum like it just a few years after he saw the same happen to his dad. The thought that someone could lose their savings/home for this is disgusting. It was bad enough seeing what was happening to someone, never mind what it would be like with that additional stress and lack of compassion on top of this.

 

I'd not call someone who votes Tory scum, but I have no problem whatsoever with calling Theresa May, Boris Johnston and other leading Tories scum. They're scum for robbing those with dementia, they're scum for taking from the poorest to give the richest tax cuts, they're scum for dragging our economy to the brink and blaming it on immigrants/the unemployed/the very ill. It's a scumbag thing to do to come up with the 'dementia tax' and also more scumbaggish that they don't even have the courage of their own convictions.

 

There's so much bias in the media I can understand why someone would read this and vote Tory. I could never, ever understand what sick scumbag could come up with many things in the Tory manifesto.

Edited May 22, 2017 by OneLittleFish

[Trout Mask Replica]

UKIP are the biggest scam Conservative central office has ever played on the British electorate. The party was always split on Europe and immigration, UKIP served as a holding pen for the disaffected and disenfranchised. 

Then, when necessary the Tories could slowly wind it down and claim the votes. That's what we're currently seeing with them. 

[Mr.Tease]

5 minutes ago, EasyUserName said:

Isn't that an argument as to how say, a 1%-er who pays more income tax than any other income bracket might feel (in a loose way)?

Absolutely, they're entitled to get angry too, and I can handle that. Sometimes seeing someone's emotional response has more impact than just a dull debate- if I say something's and someone goes irate or gets very upset, I can see the impact it's had and it's more likely for me to then think again- was that my intent to cause that distress? Is it okay to? Or maybe I accept that I'm entitled to be angry and so are they.

this idea that we're all to sensitive to handle anger and that debates and discussion should be drained of life and should just be polite, is counter productive I think, and robs you of important information about your impact on others and their responses.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Mr.Tease

[EasyUserName]

Just now, Mr.Tease said:

Absolutely, they're entitled to get angry too, and I can handle that. Sometimes seeing someone's emotional response has more impact than just a dull debate- if I say something's and someone goes irate or gets very upset, I can see the impact it's had and it's more likely for me to then think again- was that my intent to cause that distress? Is it okay to? Or maybe I accept that I'm entitled to be angry and so are they.

this idea that we're all to sensitive to handle anger and that debates and discussion should be drained of life, is counter productive I think, and robs you of important information about your impact on others and their responses.

True, but too much can stop debate - especially on the internet where I cannot read your non-verbal communication.

 

 

[Mr.Tease]

Just now, EasyUserName said:

True, but too much can stop debate - especially on the internet where I cannot read your non-verbal communication.

 

 

That's the most tricky thing about debating on the internet- it makes empathy harder because you can't see people's reactions or tone, I think that's why it tends to be nastier

[arcade fireman]

4 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Absolutely, they're entitled to get angry too, and I can handle that. Sometimes seeing someone's emotional response has more impact than just a dull debate- if I say something's and someone goes irate or gets very upset, I can see the impact it's had and it's more likely for me to then think again- was that my intent to cause that distress? Is it okay to? Or maybe I accept that I'm entitled to be angry and so are they.

this idea that we're all to sensitive to handle anger and that debates and discussion should be drained of life and should just be polite, is counter productive I think, and robs you of important information about your impact on others and their responses.

But anger taken too far will turn away the very voters Labour need to attract. Ranting about the Tories to people who voted Tory might feel good but it doesn't achieve much. Plus they probably will have heard these arguments before - if they're the sort to mix with Labour voters to such a degree they'll get in such a conversation then you're probably not telling them anything they don't know.

What we don't do enough is find out why people vote Tory. Though Labour are fighting a good campaign, I still think this will be a bad defeat for Labour. And part of the reason for me is that the Labour membership took all the wrong lessons from the 2015 defeat. 

[Ricci's Special Kebabs]

22 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

There's something very passive aggressive though in insisting everyone keep it civil. Voting conservative can really mess up your life if you are poor- people on disability benefits got horrendous treatment and many were driven to destitution and despair. It was not just an intellectual debate for them. Because of Tory cuts I lost two jobs (not in the same league but I did get shallower by them), because Tory voters didn't want to pay more tax.

Sorry, but if you do something that harms or impacts others because life will work out better for you then expect some anger and stop pretending you're too sensitive to handle it.

Its like me coming over, robbing your house and dedicating on your kitchen table, then saying "whoa there, why so angry and insulting? Can't you just respect my decisions? And debate it with me rather than screaming abuse?"

That's a terrible analogy in my honest opinion. 

The conservatives have given you a bad deal over the years, you've got a right to that opinion, however your opinion doesn't fit everybody's requirements.

 

Edited May 22, 2017 by Ricci's Special Kebabs

[babyblade41]

To get away from economics... how are labour voters sitting with Mr Corbyn's view on defence etc ?

Or are you voting purely for the economic parts of the manifesto ? 

[DeanoL]

21 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

There's something very passive aggressive though in insisting everyone keep it civil. Voting conservative can really mess up your life if you are poor- people on disability benefits got horrendous treatment and many were driven to destitution and despair. It was not just an intellectual debate for them. Because of Tory cuts I lost two jobs (not in the same league but I did get shallower by them), because Tory voters didn't want to pay more tax.

It's more about the relative impact of things. If you're comfortable enough that actually whoever gets in to government won't really effect you that much, then you're hugely privileged. Sure, if you're well off Labour might get in and you might be slightly less well off but you'll be doing fine.

But if you're struggling, if you're on a low income, have a long term illness or so on, and the Tories get back in, you might well really feel it. It might be the difference between actually being able to live or not. To afford a roof over your head or not. It's a huge deal.

That's why the way people react to supporters of the opposing parties are different. No-one is trying to get the Tories in because their life depends on it. They're trying to get the Tories in because it'll boost their effective income by 10-20%. And yes, I get why that's an appealing thing to vote for but if doesn't happen, it's no big deal. No actual lives, or even livelihoods, are at stake.

20 minutes ago, EasyUserName said:

The reason I mention it is that I would summarise the two UK parties approaches as Labour trying to achieve an outcome with social policies (such as benefits and the like) whilst Tories trying to achieve the same outcome with economic policies. 

At one point I think that was true. That the Tories had a genuine belief that trickle-down economics was a real thing and what they were doing really was for the best of the country as a whole. I may not have agreed with it, but I got the argument. But you look at Tory policies these days and you just don't see that. They don't even try and justify it any more. They're selling off bits of the NHS to make money, and not even pretending that this will actually create a better service. Post-Blair I think they really have become as self-serving as they'd always (perhaps unfairly) been demonised as being.

[Mr.Tease]

16 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

To get away from economics... how are labour voters sitting with Mr Corbyn's view on defence etc ?

Or are you voting purely for the economic parts of the manifesto ? 

Corbyn was against the disastrous Iraq war, and the disastrous Libyan intervention- if we'd listened to him we wouldn't have the same threats we have today. I find it laughable when people try to make out he'd be more dangerous for our defence when he has actually been more right than those critics, who have actually destabilised the entire Middle East with half cocked interventions under the guise of 'toughness' and safety, that have landed us in the mess of today.

Edited May 22, 2017 by Mr.Tease

[Mr.Tease]

13 minutes ago, Ricci's Special Kebabs said:

That's a terrible analogy in my honest opinion. 

The conservatives have given you a bad deal over the years, you've got a right to that opinion, however your opinion doesn't fit everybody's requirements.

 

I don't understand what you're saying there

[thatcrazypenguin]

1 hour ago, babyblade41 said:

I believe for me and my future and how I have worked to secure my future a tory vote is in my best interests and long term ., I accept it's not going to be everybody's view point and can understand that is everyones right to think differently.

When I was a lot younger my view was different , but this is what I genuinely believe this to be right for my vote 

Why dont you think about all the poor folks who are impacted by tory policy even if you yourself claim your not? You know damn well what the tories have done to groups like the disabled and many others ...why the fuck would you tolerate thay let alone vote for it? That alone marks you as a dodgy human being and I dont care what your excuse is....in extreme cases venerable people have even killed themselves thanks to to their disability support being cut or there income in the form of benefits being sanctioned for stupid reasons. If you vote for them your enabling their darker side you might want to pretend doesnt exist but it does and thats what your backing when you vote tory.  So feel free to vote tory. Just dont expect kindness in return. We know damn well what they stand for and I fail to see how any decent minded moral human being could look the other way to that. 

[thatcrazypenguin]

43 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

There's something very passive aggressive though in insisting everyone keep it civil. Voting conservative can really mess up your life if you are poor- people on disability benefits got horrendous treatment and many were driven to destitution and despair. It was not just an intellectual debate for them. Because of Tory cuts I lost two jobs (not in the same league but I did get shallower by them), because Tory voters didn't want to pay more tax.

Sorry, but if you do something that harms or impacts others because life will work out better for you then expect some anger and stop pretending you're too sensitive to handle it.

Its like me coming over, robbing your house and dedicating on your kitchen table, then saying "whoa there, why so angry and insulting? Can't you just respect my decisions? And debate it with me rather than screaming abuse?"

Couldn't have put it better. Its like their policy on schools. Your party are potentially fucking my children's education with thier cuts and their attitude....so why the fuck would i want to be nice to someone whos supporting that? Tory voters dont seem to understand how personal this election is to many....if not ourselves we all know someone having their lives impacted by tory austerity and cuts...I know a girl who volunteers at our local food and clothes bank for instance and some of the stories she tells are shocking about people's situations. Totally wrong in a devloped western country. Dont back assholes and expect to be let off the hook when people have rheir lives fucked by said assholes. You voted for them. You enable their actions. Take some fucking responsibility.

 

Im not ashamed to say it tory voters 'are' scum. There is no other word for it and I wont apologise for it. No excuses this time. The true torys have long since been revealed. Your adult enough to place your vote in the conservative column your adult enough to deal with the criticism that entials 

Edited May 22, 2017 by thatcrazypenguin

[mikegday]

is it not true that higher earners pay more tax now under conservatives than they did  in 2000-2009 under labour? If you earn 150k+ you pay more now without a doubt. I also don't think it's fair on anyone's children to burden them with more public debt later in life. We currently spend about £51b servicing just the debt alone. 

I would be all for paying more income tax to share it out, but as far as I can only the Lib Dems have been that open. Labour are pledging not to touch 95% of people's tax. It just doesn't add up in my eyes.

[EasyUserName]

2 minutes ago, thatcrazypenguin said:

Couldn't have put it better. Its like their policy on schools. Your party are potentially fucking my children's education with thier cuts and their attitude....so why the fuck would i want to be nice to someone whos supporting that? Tory voters dont seem to understand how personal this election is to many....if not ourselves we all know someone having their lives impacted by tory austerity and cuts...I know a girl who volunteers at our local food and clothes bank for instance and some of the stories she tells are shocking about people's situations. Totally wrong in a devloped western country. Dont back assholes and expect to be let off the hook when people have rheir lives fucked by said assholes. You voted for them. You enable their actions. Take some fucking responsibility.

 

Im not ashamed to say it tory voters 'are' scum. There is no other word for it and I wont apologise for it. No excuses this time. The true torys have long since been revealed. Your adult enough to place your vote in the conservative column your adult enough to deal with the criticism that entials 

The Labour party did a pretty good job on those schools too.  That one I mentioned earlier?  They were using the pupil premium (the money given to children in especially poor situations) to fund the bills due to the huge costs of the Labour PFI scheme.

 

Water is muddy when it comes to politics

[babyblade41]

1 minute ago, thatcrazypenguin said:

Why dont you think about all the poor folks who are impacted by tory policy even if you yourself claim your not? You know damn well what the tories have done to groups like the disabled and many others ...why the fuck would you tolerate thay let alone vote for it? That alone marks you as a dodgy human being and I dont care what your excuse is....in extreme cases venerable people have even killed themselves thanks to to their disability support being cut or there income in the form of benefits being sanctioned for stupid reasons. If you vote for them your enabling their darker side you might want to pretend doesnt exist but it does and thats what your backing when you vote tory.  So feel free to vote tory. Just dont expect kindness in return. We know damn well what they stand for and I fail to see how any decent minded moral human being could look the other way to that. 

I think without knowing my personal circumstances that is rather a sweeping comment, as I said not all of the policies sit well but I feel the best way forward especially long term is a tory vote.

I personally make a difference to certain sectors of society in what I do here where I live...I do make a difference to a few, and without financial recompense . I sit happily with that

At my time of life also my perspective changes , it would be admirable if I could take responsibility for every vulnerable member of society, but that's not possible .    I have a daughter in that position, but I want a more stable future for my grandchildren who are not far off going to work now.. I want a welfare system as a safety net not a lifestyle choice .  I welcome immigration but only to the point where the applicant is financial viable for not only them but family members and skilled .

I don't think that Labour this time will be covering everything I believe in .... I also think the county elections were indicative of peoples feelings 

[thatcrazypenguin]

1 minute ago, EasyUserName said:

The Labour party did a pretty good job on those schools too.  That one I mentioned earlier?  They were using the pupil premium (the money given to children in especially poor situations) to fund the bills due to the huge costs of the Labour PFI scheme.

 

Water is muddy when it comes to politics

Yes but this isnt that labour and their manifesto promises on schools are very encouraging. I woukdnt vote for blairs version of labour I base my vote on current policy not the past 

[thatcrazypenguin]

4 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

I think without knowing my personal circumstances that is rather a sweeping comment, as I said not all of the policies sit well but I feel the best way forward especially long term is a tory vote.

I personally make a difference to certain sectors of society in what I do here where I live...I do make a difference to a few, and without financial recompense . I sit happily with that

At my time of life also my perspective changes , it would be admirable if I could take responsibility for every vulnerable member of society, but that's not possible .    I have a daughter in that position, but I want a more stable future for my grandchildren who are not far off going to work now.. I want a welfare system as a safety net not a lifestyle choice .  I welcome immigration but only to the point where the applicant is financial viable for not only them but family members and skilled .

I don't think that Labour this time will be covering everything I believe in .... I also think the county elections were indicative of peoples feelings 

The best way forward is it....well lucky you to be in a situation where you can make that choice and not be affected by it.....unlike many.

[EasyUserName]

4 minutes ago, thatcrazypenguin said:

Yes but this isnt that labour and their manifesto promises on schools are very encouraging. I woukdnt vote for blairs version of labour I base my vote on current policy not the past 

I don't think you can draw a line like that - your posts previously are suggesting that past policy from Tories is impacting your thoughts.  Why can't past Labour policy do that for others?

 

I'd be pretty annoyed if that was my local school (& my taxes being wasted).

 

[thatcrazypenguin]

11 minutes ago, EasyUserName said:

I don't think you can draw a line like that - your posts previously are suggesting that past policy from Tories is impacting your thoughts.  Why can't past Labour policy do that for others?

 

I'd be pretty annoyed if that was my local school (& my taxes being wasted).

 

Oh yes you can, dont forget with labour it isnt just a new leader, its an entire shift in ideology from what they were before, also how much I disliked the tory party in the past my current electoral choice is based on current policy...and the recent tory manifesto is bad enough I dont even need to dust over the bones of thatcherism, quite enough evils in the current regime for that!

Also whats that about taxes being wasted? Kids education is wasting money is it? My kids school stands to lose around £104.000 of its per year budget by 2019 under the tory plans, thats around £350 per pupil or the equivalent of 3 teachers salarys....how can you justify that? how can anyone justify that, a total failure of the next generation, schools are understaffed and under funded as it is!  Also dont get my started on the tory education policy of sat testing for fucking 6/7 year olds and finding parents for wanting an affordable family holiday

Edited May 22, 2017 by thatcrazypenguin

[mikegday]

 

4 minutes ago, thatcrazypenguin said:

Oh yes you can, dont forget with labour it isnt just a new leader, its an entire shift in ideology from what they were before, also my current electoral choice is based on current policy...and the recent tory manifesto is bad enough I dont even need to dust over the bones of thatcherism, quite enough evils in the current regime for that!

Also whats that about taxes being wasted? Kids education is wasting money is it? My kids school stands to lose around £104.000 of its per year budget by 2019 under the tory plans, thats around £350 per pupil or the equivalent of 3 teachers salarys....how can you justify that? how can anyone justify that, a total failure of the next generation, schools are understaffed and under funded as it is!  Also dont get my started on the tory education policy of sat testing for fucking 6/7 year olds and finding parents for wanting an affordable family holiday

I reiterate, the richer pay more income tax now than under labour and the poorest pay less or even no income tax. Other than taxing the poorest again, where do you suggest this money comes from? More debt? For you children to pay off in future, when we will need to eventually cut even deeper for longer?

I wish we had unlimited money, but we don't.

Edited May 22, 2017 by mikegday

[babyblade41]

Affordable family holiday ?   haven't had a holiday in over 10 years... GF is the closest I'll get to a holiday ?

 

[DeanoL]

11 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

Affordable family holiday ?   haven't had a holiday in over 10 years... GF is the closest I'll get to a holiday ?

 

How is Glastonbury not a holiday?

[babyblade41]

Just now, DeanoL said:

How is Glastonbury not a holiday?

long weekend for me as not arriving until Friday , but as I said. this is the longest I have taken off in 10 years .

[Fork_UK]

I couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread, but this handy website will tell you who you need to vote for to give the Tories the least chance of winning in your constituency.  It's a bit like the Google Doc one that went around, but much easier.  Just pop your postcode in and it will tell you who to vote for.  

If you don't want the Tories to win, be prepared to vote tactically and not for the party you might normally vote for: https://www.tactical2017.com/

Edited May 22, 2017 by Fork_UK