Don't vote Tory

[Mr.Tease]

Just now, mikegday said:

I earn £19,700. Is that more or less than you? My own selfish self? I'm hardly rolling in cash mate, home ownership is a fantasy in my position. Like I say I've been a supporter of Labour in other elections. If we're to get anywhere we need to stop bashing each other. I have a genuine fear that Corbyn is promising the world, whilst promising only 5% will have to pay for it. Can you at least stop for a second and acknowledge that?

A lot more actually, money bags! I'm atrocious at making money!  I have one part time job 2 days a week working for a third sector organisation, which is £700 a month, and then I have two other jobs which are basically zero hour contracts (if I don't have clients or if they cancel or DNA, I get nothing!). Some months I make a lot more, but I doubt I'll get to £19,000 this year (I've never made that much in my life!) 

You're the one who said we're all too selfish, so I presumed you were including yourself? Tax rrises and redundancy is coming under the tories, I'm not sure why youre giving them the benefit of the doubt.

And honestly when they crash out of brexit without a deal (their hardliners approach will backfire spectacularly), all our jobs will get very shaky very quickly. 

[Spindles]

7 minutes ago, mikegday said:

I earn £19,700. Is that more or less than you?

50% more than I earn.  To someone on £80k a council tax bill of £1000 represents just 1.25% of their earnings, to someone on £12k it represents nearly 10%

Some taxes are already disproportionately biased against those on the lowest incomes and have been for decades, but I don't see many people fighting for that to be changed.

[arcade fireman]

8 minutes ago, mikegday said:

^ my point. It's very easy to be well liked if you're promising not to take 95% of people. It's ridiculous. We're not stupid here. If everyone wants some real change, we all have to start realising we ALL have to pay more. Like I've posted I'm no where near earning 80k, but I'm not as naive to think that we can go on a witch hunt of those who do to pay for the other 95% of us. Utter bollocks.

You don't understand the point of progressive taxation do you? Under your logic we would be having a flat tax for everyone as surely everyone should pay the same amount? 

Our public services are in crisis. Clearly the fact you think everyone needs to pay a little more means you think they need investment too. Are you seriously suggesting someone on 19k should paying the same to plug that hole as someone on 90k?

Just to let you know - someone on 90k would see their annual tax bill increase by £500/year. It's hardly onerous. 

I'm currently a fair way off that tax bracket but will probably exceed from next tax year. I don't mind paying a bit more. 

Edited May 30, 2017 by arcade fireman

[Mr.Tease]

7 hours ago, stuartbert two hats said:

Jezza did alright tonight. May, not so much.

I wonder how this is going to affect the polls.

Don't worry, tory press have altered reality! See times and telegraph front page coverage of those leadership grilling from the mirror universe from star trek

[mikegday]

1 minute ago, Mr.Tease said:

A lot more actually, money bags! I'm atrocious at making money!  I have one part time job 2 days a week working for a third sector organisation, which is £700 a month, and then I have two other jobs which are basically zero hour contracts (if I don't have clients or if they cancel or DNA, I get nothing!). Some months I make a lot more, but I doubt I'll get to £19,000 this year (I've never made that much in my life!) 

You're the one who said we're all too selfish, so I presumed you were including yourself? Tax rrises and redundancy is coming under the tories, I'm not sure why youre giving them the benefit of the doubt.

And honestly when they crash out of brexit without a deal (their hardliners approach will backfire spectacularly), all our jobs will get very shaky very quickly. 

I think it's because I look to Greece for example. Who have a hard left PM, massive amounts of debt and an unemployment rate of 25%. I work with a couple of young Greek lads who say they simply can't get a job in Greece. I don't want that at all for the UK. For me, Corbyn will become more electable if he told us how we'd all be paying for the future he promises. I don't want us to go into further debt (we spend enough servicing our current levels)  and with all the cuts Tory's still can't stop borrowing - so in my head I think if we can't stop borrowing now, how can we pay for everything he promises, whilst he promises not to make 95% of us pay.

[mikegday]

6 minutes ago, arcade fireman said:

You don't understand the point of progressive taxation do you? Under your logic we would be having a flat tax for everyone as surely everyone should pay the same amount? 

Our public services are in crisis. Clearly the fact you think everyone needs to pay a little more means you think they need investment too. Are you seriously suggesting someone on 19k should paying the same to plug that hole as someone on 90k?

Just to let you know - someone on 90k would see their annual tax bill increase by £500/year. It's hardly onerous. 

I'm currently a fair way off that tax bracket but will probably exceed from next tax year. I don't mind paying a bit more. 

I do understand progressive taxation. Where did I say everyone should pay the same tax? I said everyone realistically needs to pay more? Including me. But Corbyn isn't proposing that.

[Mr.Tease]

Anyone else find it disturbing how the audience applauded with enthusiasm with May said no deal is better than a bad deal?!

It quite literally isn't! No deal is the worst deal and is the very thing your negotiating against!  it's rock bottom, we're fucked if it happens! 

[arcade fireman]

1 minute ago, mikegday said:

I think it's because I look to Greece for example. Who have a hard left PM, massive amounts of debt and an unemployment rate of 25%. I work with a couple of young Greek lads who say they simply can't get a job in Greece. I don't want that at all for the UK. For me, Corbyn will become more electable if he told us how we'd all be paying for the future he promises. I don't want us to go into further debt (we spend enough servicing our current levels)  and with all the cuts Tory's still can't stop borrowing - so in my head I think if we can't stop borrowing now, how can we pay for everything he promises, whilst he promises not to make 95% of us pay.

Greece's problems started a long time before Syriza came to power. Indeed one of the reasons Greece went into such trouble was because they were so poor at collecting their citizens' taxes. 

[arcade fireman]

Just now, mikegday said:

I do understand progressive taxation. Where did I say everyone should pay the same tax? I said everyone realistically needs to pay more? Including me. But Corbyn isn't proposing that.

So rather than those on £90k paying £500/year more, you'd rather have people struggling financially already paying £300/year more for example? Just so those on higher incomes can save a small amount? 

[Spindles]

1 minute ago, Mr.Tease said:

Anyone else find it disturbing how the audience applauded with enthusiasm with May said no deal is better than a bad deal?!

It quite literally isn't! No deal is the worst deal and is the very thing your negotiating against!  it's rock bottom, we're fucked if it happens! 

It's ok.  She is giving a speech today saying exactly the opposite:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/30/theresa-may-brexit-message-social-care-u-turn

[Mr.Tease]

4 minutes ago, mikegday said:

I think it's because I look to Greece for example. Who have a hard left PM, massive amounts of debt and an unemployment rate of 25%. I work with a couple of young Greek lads who say they simply can't get a job in Greece. I don't want that at all for the UK. For me, Corbyn will become more electable if he told us how we'd all be paying for the future he promises. I don't want us to go into further debt (we spend enough servicing our current levels)  and with all the cuts Tory's still can't stop borrowing - so in my head I think if we can't stop borrowing now, how can we pay for everything he promises, whilst he promises not to make 95% of us pay.

The idea behind Labour's borrowing is that you borrow to invest, so you get a return on in it. It's like you running a business and deciding to cut costs by not spending any money on infrastructure and just letting everything run down. You actually end up making less and less money as stuff breaks. Where as if you invested in a new office building or increased service capacity, you could actually boost your income and will repay what you borrowed. 

[mikegday]

1 minute ago, arcade fireman said:

So rather than those on £90k paying £500/year more, you'd rather have people struggling financially already paying £300/year more for example? Just so those on higher incomes can save a small amount? 

I don't want the richest to save anything. Your completely misrepresenting my point. Tax the richest more of course, more than Corbyn is proposing for all I care. But also add a few % onto the lower brackets. Imagine then what we can achieve. My point is that he's making promises, whilst promising 95% of people won't have to pay. It's wrong. It's why his manifesto is so popular, probably with the 95% who won't have to pay anymore. But it's also the reason it turns me off, I want something that can be realistically achieved.

I want everyone to chip in more, so we can all get more in return. Don't misrepresent my point. 

[Mr.Tease]

6 minutes ago, Spindles said:

It's ok.  She is giving a speech today saying exactly the opposite:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/30/theresa-may-brexit-message-social-care-u-turn

That's unlike her! She's usually strong and stable

[Spindles]

I don't have anything more to chip in.  Haven't had a pay rise in years (despite the papers telling me that pay is rising) and I live on one meal a day (sandwiches for work) on half the days of my year.  The approximately £600 total cost of glastonbury I save for all year and it is the only luxury I can afford and to do so I have to go without.  Every year my wage is worth less as living costs rise.

Just for the record, I'm not at all concerned about the impact on someone having to pay VAT on their private school fees.

[eFestivals]

someone asked in here the other day how come the polls are varying so much. I came across an article yesterday (I forget where, so don't have a link) that gave the low-down.

Apparently all the pollsters have changed their methodolies since 2015, i the hope of improving them - but all of them have to make some assumptions against the raw 'who I'll vote for' data.

YouGov are showing the smallest gap between Labour and tory because they're taking youngsters at their word that they'll vote, and so presuming a 60%(ish) turnout for that group.

Other pollsters are using the facts of history, where youngsters say (at around 60%) they'll go and vote, but only 40(ish)% actually did in the last 2 elections.

Who is right? We can only guess. However....

When those youngsters are asked what's motivating them to vote this time, free uni is top of the list. That's the same reason given for why many would vote Clegg in 2010, when they also claimed they'd go and vote at around 60% - but only turned out at 43%.

Corbyn is doing better than many expected but even if that YouGov take is right it's still shit loads behind, and it's likely that anyone who is likely to be swung towards Corbyn has already swung. Closing that last bit of gap is going to be harder than the swing which has happened so far.

[arcade fireman]

10 minutes ago, mikegday said:

I don't want the richest to save anything. Your completely misrepresenting my point. Tax the richest more of course, more than Corbyn is proposing for all I care. But also add a few % onto the lower brackets. Imagine then what we can achieve. My point is that he's making promises, whilst promising 95% of people won't have to pay. It's wrong. It's why his manifesto is so popular, probably with the 95% who won't have to pay anymore. But it's also the reason it turns me off, I want something that can be realistically achieved.

I want everyone to chip in more, so we can all get more in return. Don't misrepresent my point. 

How much more % would you like someone on 20k to earn? We know those on the lowest incomes have suffered the most during the last few years. We know those on low and middle incomes are the ones who are just about managing. There's plenty of reports of middle income workers (e.g. nurses) using food banks.

How much more do you think they should contribute relative to those earning over 80k?

I'm a pretty strong Corbyn critic, but I can't argue with the principle of what he's doing here. 

[eFestivals]

42 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Tax rrises and redundancy is coming under the tories, I'm not sure why youre giving them the benefit of the doubt.

In the last 3 months, the tories have added 200,000 full time jobs to the economy, with around 70,000 of those 'new' jobs being an upgrade from part time to full time.

There's lots to knock about the tories, but the fact of almost full employment and the type of employment improving is not one of them, particularly when the rest of Europe has some horrendous unemployment that might have been the UK too.

There's worse things that poorly paid jobs - like no jobs.

Edited May 30, 2017 by eFestivals

[Mr.Tease]

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

In the last 3 months, the tories have added 200,000 full time jobs to the economy, which around 70,000 of those 'new' jobs being an upgrade from part time to full time.

There's lots to knock about the tories, but the fact of almost full employment and the type of employment improving is not one of them, particularly when the rest of Europe has some horrendous unemployment that might have been the UK too.

There's worse things that poorly paid jobs - like no jobs.

And you don't think that brexit or a hard brexit is going to change things? (that's what I was alluding to) 

[eFestivals]

22 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Anyone else find it disturbing how the audience applauded with enthusiasm with May said no deal is better than a bad deal?!

It quite literally isn't! No deal is the worst deal and is the very thing your negotiating against!  it's rock bottom, we're fucked if it happens! 

So if the EU say we can have a deal for £100Bn (or £200Bn, or £300Bn) a year in cash, that would be a better deal than no deal?

Your take is flawed.

And to anyone who is thinking about it more than you, the display of your take only confirms that there's plenty of poor opinions on 'the left' as there might be on the right.

I don't see how the rejection of thought is a better thing than thought.

[eFestivals]

Just now, Mr.Tease said:

And you don't think that brexit or a hard brexit is going to change things? (that's what I was alluding to) 

I do.

So you need to ask yourself how come Corbyn thinks it'll change nothing at all, as laid out in the Labour manifesto.

(I also think that changes in taxation change behaviour towards taxation - another area where the Labour manifesto says nothing changes.)

Meanwhile May is accepting that brexit is going to change things.

Which of those two party takes most aligns with your belief (given just there) that brexit will change things?

Just because the tory take is shit doesn't get to mean that the Labour take isn't shit - and i'd much rather the Labour take wasn't shit.

[babyblade41]

As an ex employer of a business, there is no way I could afford to pay 10.00 an hour for this and corporation tax, it crippled me then and I know of a few others who wouldn't make it if this goes through.

If I could have a PM who could give us all most of what we want then we could all be near an agreement surely:

mine would be : No health tourism , any woman who wants to travel here and is over 20 weeks pregnant should have the necessary insurance or means to pay for any possible medical care whilst visiting 

Anyone needing medical care due to alcohol induced medical emergency should be billed, I've been in A & E at the weekend that is rammed with idiots who think its OK for them to get steaming and expect the NHS to foot the bill to keep them safe. Plus the time it takes of any police officers involved as they can't leave until the patient is deemed well enough

Winter fuel payments means tested which I'm sure could easily be done through tax codes rather than reams of forms to fill in , my late Mum used to get it and although not wealthy she still could afford her heating, this saving could be distributed to a larger payment for those that do 

Any immigration should be only for those who have skills and can show they have the financial ability to take care of themselves and family for 5 years , this country is full and as much as we'd love to help everyone in an ideal world it isn't financially viable

I believe in leaving the EU , maybe a sticky wicket for many here but I honestly believe in having full control rather than to be dictated to by a failing EU , it's a question of either in or out as none of us know how it will turn out but think we will be better off out long term

I want to feel safe here  and for me that means committing to an up to date defence programme including nuclear just to deter any one else deciding to take a potshot at us whenever they feel the need , and I know the Labour Party agrees with this policy especially with Trident . I'm not sure JC is as committed and I worry if he does become PM his views as an active member of CND it will be well down on his list.

 

I'm appalled that 5 of the Rotherham child abusers are allowed to use tax payers money to fund their appeal against their deportation back to Pakistan...if I was in charge the minute they stepped out of prison there would be a car waiting to take them to the next available plane back to their country of origin 

A couple of issues regarding welfare , something I am fully aware of as my other daughter is on housing benefit etc. She decided to have a child 13 years ago , her and her then partner had nowhere to live of their own and only she was working in a relatively good job , it was madness and told them both so at the time , they went ahead with it and what amazed me is that after 6 months they had a roof over there head and full benefits . This is not how she was bought up , in my world you worked and waited until you were in a financial stable position before children were ever discussed.

13 years on and she has 2 children both being paid for by the tax payer and she knows my feelings on this but  she looks at her life and in comparison to her sisters lifestyle who done it in my view the right way and the regret is plain to see and she openly admits her way was the wrong way 

In my view if you can't afford to look after children don't bloody have them , welfare should be a safety net not a life style choice and not all but we see every day where in families no one works and multiple children are in tow.

When I had mine I was back at my office the next day and no I never had a nanny to help or anything so grand...just sheer hard work and if we didn't work we couldn't pay the bills 

I could go on and I know a lot of the above will not sit well for many here and I'm not going to try and get people to try and change their opinions, I will not abuse people either as in my view if you lose your temper you have lost the argument .

All the debating on TV between all the leaders of all the political parties and who does better than the other won't change my view and I'm sure won't change opposing views and wouldn't expect it to  I have yet to see last nights programme but I am not really a fan Of Jeremy Paxman , I think he is full of his own importance and not the best person for the job, no doubt others will disagree 

As for the post by the person who basically told me I won't be welcome at Glastonbury , well my friend I'm pretty sure I won't be the only tory going there and I am not going to make a political stance, I'm going to get away for a few days as I haven't had a break for a good few years ,love live music but more of a heavy rock fan than a lot of the music that is advertised but I really don't want to be debating the ins and outs of different politics as by then the election will be over and whoever is in power it's something we have to accept and hope that whether Labour or tory are at the helm we will just have to put up with it 

I hope I haven't offended anyone in my post as none intended..... lets just agree to disagree

[mikegday]

7 minutes ago, arcade fireman said:

How much more % would you like someone on 20k to earn? We know those on the lowest incomes have suffered the most during the last few years. We know those on low and middle incomes are the ones who are just about managing. There's plenty of reports of middle income workers (e.g. nurses) using food banks.

How much more do you think they should contribute relative to those earning over 80k?

I'm a pretty strong Corbyn critic, but I can't argue with the principle of what he's doing here. 

I couldn't possible put a figure on it, but I will promise a full consultation process and green paper before I determine the level. 

I jest. Well if you look at it those earning £10,000 have gone from paying about 10% in 2005, to paying no income tax at all today. I'd raise the tax free threshold higher to say about £13k and then increase the % across every bracket, progressively obviously. I don't know by how much, I'm not an economist.

[Sack truck]

It's wasn't just a bankers induced crash though, it was mostly caused in uk by Gordon brown taking house prices out the inflation basket, thus stopping any rate rises, fuelling cheap lending. The lending criteria was lax but that was on his watch too. Lost my own job due to the crash but the blame for me lies with him. Had houses still been in there would be nowhere near as much lending done as inflation would be seen to be rampant. 

 

 

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, babyblade41 said:

by a failing EU

did you know that you can see people in the 1975 EUref holding up placards saying we must leave the failing EU before it destroys us?

That'll be the same EU that 40 years later is stronger than ever - if not, why do countries keep on joining? - and where UK membership lifted the UK out of the deepest deepest financial shit.

Your take is flawed, too.

[Mr.Tease]

11 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

So if the EU say we can have a deal for £100Bn (or £200Bn, or £300Bn) a year in cash, that would be a better deal than no deal?

Your take is flawed.

And to anyone who is thinking about it more than you, the display of your take only confirms that there's plenty of poor opinions on 'the left' as there might be on the right.

I don't see how the rejection of thought is a better thing than thought.

How do you think it will go down internationally if we just decide were not going to pay back anything? If we do just walk away? Why do you think Greece hasn't done this? Do you think anyone will lend us money? What will happen to our credit rating?

You can be deliberately awkward /provocative if you want, by suggesting an amount they won't ask for,  but the EU aren't going to pluck a magic figure out of the air, there will be costings and the international community will decide if they're real or not and punish us accordingly for not paying it. 

Edited May 30, 2017 by Mr.Tease