Don't vote Tory

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

What are you getting out of the continuous Corbyn bashing?

Speaking truth is no longer allowed?

we're much more fucked than I thought we were.

 

7 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

You're part of a self-fulfilling prophecy, I'm sure May's grateful.

PMSL

If you think Jezza had a hope without these criticisms I want some of what you've been taking.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, Diva Sam said:

I just want everyone to know that this olive and pistachio cake that I am eating really is to die for.

did the olives come from the tree in Jezza's office, the tree with no branches? And did Jezza make the cake? I hear he makes a wicked cake when he takes a day off in lieu.

[RichardWaller]

13 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Speaking truth is no longer allowed?

we're much more fucked than I thought we were.

 

PMSL

If you think Jezza had a hope without these criticisms I want some of what you've been taking.

Your truth is your opinion, something you've been desperate to be proved right on since he was elected so you repeat, repeat, repeat and it's tiresome.

Do you not think the constant criticism has effected public opinion of him? Sure you wouldn't be doing it otherwise.

[eFestivals]

30 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

Your truth is your opinion, something you've been desperate to be proved right on since he was elected so you repeat, repeat, repeat and it's tiresome.

Yes, it's an opinion, just like you trying to knock my opinion down with your opinion is your opinion.

However, i'm referencing the facts of what polling is showing. I'm not knocking him down on the basis of nothing while you're trying to make him stand up on the basis of nothing.

Feel free to disagree with my opinion. Don't tell me I'm not allowed to express an opinion.

 

30 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

Do you not think the constant criticism has effected public opinion of him? Sure you wouldn't be doing it otherwise.

Yeah, me personally has caused Jezza to be 20% behind the tories. :lol:

It's very definitely nothing to do with Jezza being shit, constantly, and everyone noticing.

[RichardWaller]

23 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Yes, it's an opinion, just like you trying to knock my opinion down with your opinion is your opinion.

However, i'm referencing the facts of what polling is showing. I'm not knocking him down on the basis of nothing while you're trying to make him stand up on the basis of nothing.

Feel free to disagree with my opinion. Don't tell me I'm not allowed to express an opinion.

 

Yeah, me personally has caused Jezza to be 20% behind the tories.

It's very definitely nothing to do with Jezza being shit, constantly, and everyone noticing.

Polls have hardly been reliable of late have they? I'm not trying to make him stand, but if I were it'd be on the basis of two Labour leadership election victories. We'll just keep going until the members give you the answer you want eh? I'm just baffled by how people who claim to oppose the Tories, are so desperate to undermine the Labour Party. Do you actually want May to win? Hypothetical question, and don't just say he won't cos you don't want him to, if Corbyn did win, could you bring yourself to support him or are you too invested in him failing?

Tell me where I've said you're not allowed to express opinion? It's a wonderful thing, freedom of speech, allows you to put words into people's mouths.

Nah, not you personally, don't be silly. You know I didn't mean that. It's your attitude, which is obviously shared. I don't know if you think Momentum are a loud minority, don't know if you think John McTernan represents the majority of Labour supporters by writing in the Daily Mail and slagging off the Labour leader and his supporters... It's a mess. 

Sure, Corbyn's got his faults like anyone. I wish it weren't a necessary evil, but he could've done to get a bit cosier with the media. That said, would they let him? People slag him off for lacking a back bone, then when he even suggests reselection he's a bully. What can Corbyn do to satisfy you, except quit?

Edited April 20, 2017 by RichardWaller

[uscore]

I've not defended Corbyn here. I do disagree with the extent of the criticism he's received (particularly in this thread!), but there are valid points contained within that criticism.

Since the election in 2015 I was convinced Labour would also lose the next election. I was desperately uninspired by the candidates for Milliband's successor.  I went with Corbyn as I felt he was the only one different;  I knew it was a long shot but felt that a gamble was the best shot, maybe he could inspire and unite  the Left on a platform of opposing austerity.

Obviously that hasn't happened. I think he himself takes a fair share of responsibility for that, but not in entirety.  I knew he'd have a hard time from the Right of the press, but I underestimated the immediate resistance he'd receive from the Left, and from within his own party. I can see the frustration of other people who'd voted Corbyn and why, regrettably, they'd respond with the "red tory" insults, causing further divisions.

By the time of the leadership challenge I was aware that Corbyn both couldn't succeed and wouldn't be allowed to succeed.  But jeez, Owen Smith?  A man so bland no-one could remember his name 10 minutes after being told it.  Couple that with the party's attempt to gerrymander the result by changing the rules, it's no wonder Corbyn romped the vote.

He probably should have resigned at some point. But he hasn't.  Labour remains the best hope to displace the Tories.  Children are coming home from schools hungry.  You don't have to like Corbyn, you just have to dislike him less than May.  That's how our stupid system works (unless you are live in an area where Lib Dems or Greens are best placed to win the seat of course).  

[ivan]

3 hours ago, Mr.Tease said:

But compare her to Sturgeon or the Tory leader in Scotland, or even May- I don't like any of them politically, but they're on a different level completely to her or anyone else the party can muster at present. 

She is my neighbouring MP and I have a female MP in Mary Creagh.

Personally I would go with Mary , Yvette needs to spend more time keeping Ed under control !

[eFestivals]

25 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

Polls have hardly been reliable of late have they?

The polls for trump, for brexit, for GE 2015 and any other you can find were close enough (particularly the final polls), tho if you want to dispute them it's difficult when they *all* under-estimated the vote of 'the right'.

None of them were out by anything like the amount Jezza is trailing by.

[eFestivals]

28 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

Tell me where I've said you're not allowed to express opinion?

someone did, I answered back and then you jumped in on what I answered back to.

If you jump in on someone's words as you did, you're picking up on what i've said to their words. :rolleyes:

 

[eFestivals]

30 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

Sure, Corbyn's got his faults like anyone. I wish it weren't a necessary evil, but he could've done to get a bit cosier with the media. That said, would they let him? People slag him off for lacking a back bone, then when he even suggests reselection he's a bully. What can Corbyn do to satisfy you, except quit?

Corbyn has been shunning the media and not the other way around.

And yes, quitting a year ago would have been fantastic, before he decided going on holiday was more important than being the leader of a political party.

[siblin]

*wades in with a bag of 2-pence*  So much to address here.

On Corbyn.  Arguing that in not supporting him is helping the Tories makes no sense.  Yes our FPTP system has electoral quirks, but if you elect crap as the face of left wing politics, the country discards left wing politics as a whole.  You/we need to make left wing politics credible.

Now on the topic of charisma.  My reason for being a  Corbyn detractor is not because hes not charismatic (I supported Ed Milliband in spite of his lack of charisma because he was an intelligent politician).  I'm a detractor because he's proved himself incompetent at promoting sensible, progressive left wing politics.  To quote a left wing icon (Tony Benn), hes not an effective signpost.  I'm also incredibly disappointed at his weakness during brexit and personally blame him for the results far more than any Tory or ukipper out there.  There was no credible signposting towards a remain vote from the supposed labour leader.

because of this in spite of being a labour member, labour will not get a divine right to my vote this time around.  I'll be basing my vote on the local candidates (with the tory incumbent being excluded based on the fact he's a tory).  That sadly is the fact of what Corbyns "leadership" is doing to the labour party, and whats enabled t-may to decree with some confidence that she'll walk away from this with a huge majority.

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

they've all been keeping their heads down.

 

Indeed.  Anyone politically competent in the parliamentary labour party has tried to distance themselves because they know its going end badly.  They'll all resurface at some point, and YC will be the front runner amongst them.  Her silence during owen smiths bid for leadership was deafening, and just showed she didnt want to tarnish herself as she knew her best bet would be after an election.

3 hours ago, arcade fireman said:

Cooper is too tarnished by the past in the eyes of both members and the electorate - didn't come close to winning in 2015 so won't stand much of a chance this time round.

Not really true.  Certainly not for members, and the electorate is surprisingly forgetful when they want to be.  T-mays flip flopping, or woeful time as home secretary, or her plagiarism of a UKIP speech havent done much to dent her support.

[RichardWaller]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

The polls for trump, for brexit, for GE 2015 and any other you can find were close enough (particularly the final polls), tho if you want to dispute them it's difficult when they *all* under-estimated the vote of 'the right'.

None of them were out by anything like the amount Jezza is trailing by.

Aye, they've got their places but they're hardly gospel. The 2015 GE exit poll felt like a sucker punch, I don't remember seeing anyone predicting a Tory majority before then.

Yeah, Jezza's a long way out in the polls and I think it is six of one half a dozen of the other, Corbyn not being what people expect from a statesman and partly the continuous negativity from the Labour Party. Just like unity, and when you've got MPs and members moaning about a lack of unity on one hand then slagging off supporters for being Trots, Nazis or Red Tories on the other, it's laughable.

[RichardWaller]

14 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

someone did, I answered back and then you jumped in on what I answered back to.

If you jump in on someone's words as you did, you're picking up on what i've said to their words.

 

Are you sure you're not just making things up? I replied to eastynh, chatty and FuzzyDunlop, who is it who's supposed to have told you you can't express your opinion?

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

I don't remember seeing anyone predicting a Tory majority before then.

that's because of FPTP ... unless every seat is polled individually, it's impossible to make a fully-accurate prediction on seats. 

For share of the vote the polls were close enough, and it was the effect that the Libdem collapse had on seats that caused the majority for the tories.

When the share of the vote for Labour this time is much wider than in 2015, the polls point to a much more crushing defeat for Labour than in 2015 - something like 50 seats or more less seats.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

Are you sure you're not just making things up? I replied to eastynh, chatty and FuzzyDunlop, who is it who's supposed to have told you you can't express your opinion?

the one who said criticisms of Corbyn shouldn't be posted if you're wanting not-the-tories.

I don't think I'm so important as to change anyone's mind by my comments. Do you think I am? 

I also don't think that fair comment should be curtailed. 

[RichardWaller]

14 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Corbyn has been shunning the media and not the other way around.

And yes, quitting a year ago would have been fantastic, before he decided going on holiday was more important than being the leader of a political party.

To be fair, it's both. If he were more accommodating of the media, do you really think stuff like the dancing at the cenotaph crap wouldn't have happened?

[eFestivals]

Just now, RichardWaller said:

To be fair, it's both. If he were more accommodating of the media, do you really think stuff like the dancing at the cenotaph crap wouldn't have happened?

It's not both. Corbyn won't talk to the media because they insist on asking him questions to clarify what he's saying, and he can't do detail and fucks up. 

see his January 'relaunch' for the perfect examples of that, and ask yourself why he's being shy of press questions right now.

[RichardWaller]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

the one who said criticisms of Corbyn shouldn't be posted if you're wanting not-the-tories.

I don't think I'm so important as to change anyone's mind by my comments. Do you think I am? 

I also don't think that fair comment should be curtailed. 

None of them did, geniunely got no idea where you've plucked this from.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, RichardWaller said:

None of them did, geniunely got no idea where you've plucked this from.

ok, so there's more than just politics to need to get up to speed about.

Like politics, it's all there for you to see for yourself if you care to/want to/are able to.

[RichardWaller]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

It's not both. Corbyn won't talk to the media because they insist on asking him questions to clarify what he's saying, and he can't do detail and fucks up. 

see his January 'relaunch' for the perfect examples of that, and ask yourself why he's being shy of press questions right now.

Course it's both. Going back to the memorial thing, The Sun weren't interested in reporting that Corbyn stayed and spoke to veterans while other MPs sodded off for their VIP dinners, not while they could stick a few pictures together to try and make it look like he's doing a jig. 

Again, six of one half a dozen of the other. He's not perfect, he's going to struggle to get his points across on a platform, most of us would. Even if this relaunch went off great it'd still be talked down. Yet somehow, he's not the one shying away from televised debates.

[RichardWaller]

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

ok, so there's more than just politics to need to get up to speed about.

Like politics, it's all there for you to see for yourself if you care to/want to/are able to.

Are you talking about me, yourself or both? It's not the first time you've accused me of saying something I haven't.

[eFestivals]

Just now, RichardWaller said:

Course it's both. Going back to the memorial thing, The Sun weren't interested in reporting that Corbyn stayed and spoke to veterans while other MPs sodded off for their VIP dinners, not while they could stick a few pictures together to try and make it look like he's doing a jig. 

The press aren't perfect and some work to an agenda. That's nothing new for Corbyn.

Meanwhile, the man who won't talk to the press leaves the press to fill the space he might have had with something else.

Miliband worked the press and got press. Corbyn runs from the press and doesn't get his own words in the press because of it.

 

Just now, RichardWaller said:

Even if this relaunch went off great it'd still be talked down.

Get back to me when he's managed to not fuck up the chances he gets.

 

Just now, RichardWaller said:

Yet somehow, he's not the one shying away from televised debates.

Laughable.

He ran away from televised EU debates. He's only dropped that at May because she's run away so he thinks he's safe.

If May changes her mind he'll get slaughtered, cos there's a million things in Corbyn';s past to be dragged out, and (despite her dreadful manner) she's a capable politician who does detail and will be extremely well briefed, while he'll flounder as he does in PMQs.

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, RichardWaller said:

Are you talking about me, yourself or both? It's not the first time you've accused me of saying something I haven't.

Go back to the previous page and READ, FFS. :rolleyes:

 

[cazzatron]

Its obvious which way this is going to go, and labour doesn't stand a chance with Jezza in charge. This isn't Corbyn bashing, its just the truth. My two cents (for what its worth) is that lib dems will split the vote even more from labour, and tories will have some small gains on their target seats.

I'll be interested to watch what happens with the vote percentages for SNP, UKIP and Lib Dems. I think Greens will keep Brighton and no other gains.

Doesn't mean that I will ever vote tory, but just that I have accepted the most likely outcome and prepare myself for a happier and hopefully politics free Glasto  

[Stu H]

One person's rudderless hard Brexit or mining industry demise is another man's Iraq War or housing market and banking industry collapse.

I've always been uncomfortable with the notion there is a 'good and a 'bad' side per se. People choose their politics for all manner or reasons. In my time, I've voted for 4 different parties, I've tactically voted and I've also spoilt my ballot paper. It's my choice to do all of those things or none of those things.

My particular concern with modern politics (one of many!) is that many people are no longer one side or the other, they're a mix of policies from both and ultimately feel forced to make a choice of one. Parties I have voted for in the past have ended up cocking up all manner of things and I have a deep level of discomfort about that. But I feel I have to put my X in the box somewhere.