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Quark Grand Master

Quark

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, GETOFFAMYLAWN said:

I hear what you're saying but I don't think these are at all fair or valid comparisons. Arabic people, black people are, in the UK, minorities who face discrimination and oppression, assumption they they're muggers or terrorists would constitute active participation in that oppression/discrimination. Women live under the patriarchy, at risk of sexual assault... and in all honesty I'm not quite sure what your exactly what your example is getting at there. But yeah I understand that this is well-intentioned and you're saying that taking a position of assuming negative stereotypes about people is a shitty policy.

However we're discussing an issue where men are the cause and perpetrators of a problem, we're the status quo, we hold the power and the privilege. A better example, although not perfect, is when you're dealing with a copper it's not unwise to keep yourself aware of the power they hold and the possibility they might be a part of the systemic abuses of that power which we know exist within the police. Doesn't mean that you're going to take the view that all coppers are pigs, The key phrase is "degree of skepticism", it's really not unhealthy to keep yourself aware that we've got a gender politics issue ingrained in our culture. If a man you know starts showing signs of being part of the problem, you really shouldn't ignore it.

That doesn't mean any off-colour joke means you go on Twitter and post a big take-down to get them cancelled, the best way to go forward will depend on the circumstances. If you hear or learn something from another man that could be a red flag, then you need to think on it and decide what you're going to do about it. Call them out on their bullshit, discuss it with a friend, report it to a boss or HR if that's what's required.

Those are some reasonable and well articulated points Lawn. Unfortunately that's not what he was saying though.

In the context of allegations of sexual assault he is talking about the assumption that a man is OK unless you've been told otherwise is a position that shouldn't be held. I'm not trying to over dramatize what he said to play the poor picked on male card. He's talking about a fundamental challenge to the principle of innocent until proven guilty. By his thinking we start off guilty and them have to prove we're "OK".

In the context of gender politics that you're taking about yes there's a while lotta history and ingrained behaviour that is being challenged, and rightly so. And we should continue to challenge it. But in the context of the post he's referring to, nope. And I stand by that.

But yeah, examples were harder to think of, plus his post made me fucking angry to be honest. So prob not the best.

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Odessa
Odessa

Ok Getoffamylawn

Quark
Quark

Ok, I'm straight up calling this bit out as horseshit though: I don't mean an ability to trust close male friends (altho it's related). I mean like an assumption of innocence- faith that a man is

dentalplan
dentalplan

Oh right I only listened to them through a subwoofer.

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Bradders Collaborator

Bradders

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, Quark said:

Those are some reasonable and well articulated points Lawn. Unfortunately that's not what he was saying though.

In the context of allegations of sexual assault he is talking about the assumption that a man is OK unless you've been told otherwise is a position that shouldn't be held. I'm not trying to over dramatize what he said to play the poor picked on male card. He's talking about a fundamental challenge to the principle of innocent until proven guilty. By his thinking we start off guilty and them have to prove we're "OK".

In the context of gender politics that you're taking about yes there's a while lotta history and ingrained behaviour that is being challenged, and rightly so. And we should continue to challenge it. But in the context of the post he's referring to, nope. And I stand by that.

But yeah, examples were harder to think of, plus his post made me fucking angry to be honest. So prob not the best.

Innocent until proven guilty is the stance of the courts, and that stance will, rightly, stay even in the case of sexual assault allegations.

It’s extremely difficult with accusations like this because we can’t possibly know the details. It’s also so serious it’s hard to talk about it in more hypothetical and general terms. I do think it’s important that if you don’t necessarily want to outright believe the accuser’s version of events as gospel, at least don’t bring up “ahh well innocent until proven guilty” and other  whataboutisms about something that people almost never lie about. The instinct shouldn’t be to defend the man in the position of power, that’s how we ended up in a situation where women are so scared to come forward.

Anyway, with sexual assault being such a difficult subject, if we step back and just talk about sexist behaviour in general, I think it’s absolutely right to assume all men are guilty and put the onus on them to prove they’re not, because history has proven that to be the case. I include myself in this, on occasions I’ve been told something I did or said was sexist, they’ve almost always been correct. It’s hard for us to accept at first because none of us wants to think we could act that way, but it’s so ingrained in our culture I don’t think there are any men who are innocent.

 

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Quark Grand Master

Quark

Posted
Posted (edited)

Dunno what to read into it, but they certainly weren't hanging around. Either (a) they already had an inkling or (b) he's fessed straight up to them on the allegations coming out. Certainly doesn't look like a group backing their mate up does it?

On the other topic I've never really listened to any Jepson other than by chance. Feel I should give her stuff a listen from what you lot say.

EDIT: nonsense. I've obviously read into it.

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dentalplan Veteran

dentalplan

Posted
Posted
26 minutes ago, Quark said:

Dunno what to read into it, but they certainly weren't hanging around. Either (a) they already had an inkling or (b) he's fessed straight up to them on the allegations coming out. Certainly doesn't look like a group backing their mate up does it?

I don’t think it’s any of that. They’re following their (his) own words and believing the survivors. It’s not about backing up their mate, the whole discussion yesterday about not presuming innocence of someone because they’re a friend etc. comes in here.

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Quark Grand Master

Quark

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Posted
11 hours ago, GETOFFAMYLAWN said:

Hookworms have done the right thing there. There's nothing to be gained by trying to draw conclusions from their statement, they've done the right thing, that's all there is to it.

 

11 hours ago, dentalplan said:

I don’t think it’s any of that. They’re following their (his) own words and believing the survivors. It’s not about backing up their mate, the whole discussion yesterday about not presuming innocence of someone because they’re a friend etc. comes in here.

I'll not lie, I'm not doing great at finding the right wording on this stuff. Meh, learning curve I guess.

My point being that for fellow band mates (and one would assume friends?) to drop him like such a hot potato clearly suggests guilt and a swift acceptance thereof by the others.

Employers, record labels, studios etc can be seen to drop someone in this situation as a form of PR damage limitation; they're clearly seen to be doing the right thing by distancing themselves as quickly as possible. For fellow bandmates to do it would suggest there's far less ambiguity over the truth of what's coming out.

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eFestivals Mentor

eFestivals

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, Quark said:

My point being that for fellow band mates (and one would assume friends?) to drop him like such a hot potato clearly suggests guilt and a swift acceptance thereof by the others.

or alternatively, they realise in the current climate there's no escaping the allegations whether they're true or not?

</just a thought>

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Amy Lawn Community Regular

Amy Lawn

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

or alternatively, they realise in the current climate there's no escaping the allegations whether they're true or not?

</just a thought>

Don't talk shit, Neil. Men in positions of power always come out ok from this. Louis CK is fine, Aziz Ansari is fine, fucking Harvey Weinstein will be fine.

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