Trains and Bricks.

[eFestivals]

12 hours ago, feral chile said:

ensuring that first language Welsh speakers can get the services they need

they can.  

Just because they can't get it to your preferred schedule doesn't alter that.

And as I keep on pointing out, the only way currently to ensure your demand is to force people into doing what you won't do for yourself, and to re-allocate resources from one thing to another (to meaningfully degrade the health services available overall). 

(&/or to demand a lowering of professional medical standards).

Put simply, your demand is not a benefit to the people of Wales - as recognised by the Welsh govt.

Edited October 27, 2018 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, feral chile said:

I don't serve Welsh speakers. If there was a business need, Welsh courses are available through my employer. If I had another living soul who I could speak Welsh to, I would.

yeah, it's everyone else's fault, and there's a greater business need for a Welsh-speaking privately employed chemist at your say-so of what their business need is, than there is someone fulfilling a primary govt service.  

I guess you can't see the comedy in what you say. Or just how un-self-aware and self-serving. Or how it's Nationalist emotion over all sense.

 

Edited October 27, 2018 by eFestivals

[feral chile]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

yeah, it's everyone else's fault, and there's a greater business need for a Welsh-speaking privately employed chemist at your say-so of what their business need is, than there is someone fulfilling a primary govt service.  

I guess you can't see the comedy in what you say. Or just how un-self-aware and self-serving. Or how it's Nationalist emotion over all sense.

 

It's nothing ti do with nationalism.

It's to do with minorities.

You're blinkered because the minority happens to be Welsh.

Welsh speakers are a minority in their own country, yes, and that might be something for nationalists to be united around, and adds an extra layer of irony.

But all democrats should be interested in social justice.

My employer decides the business need, and in the particular area I work, they've decided there is no business need, so I can't go on the Welsh course. I have no Welsh speaking customers.

First thing I looked into.

Or would you prefer the government to spend taxpayer's money teaching me Welsh just because I want to speak it, even though it wouldn't serve the public in any way?

Edited October 27, 2018 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, feral chile said:

It's to do with minorities.

there's a far-greater number of people in England whoes first language isn't English than there is in Wales ... do you think the English NHS should put compulsion on English chemists to service in every language in the world?  

If your answer to that is 'no', then it's fuck all to do with 'minorities' and everything to do with 'Welsh'. 

Edited October 27, 2018 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, feral chile said:

You're blinkered because the minority happens to be Welsh.

you're preferencing Welsh over minorities.  

Because you're not demanding that chemists service everyone whose first language isn't English, are you?

For you it's all about 'Welsh', not 'minorities'.

[feral chile]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

there's a far-greater number of people in England whoes first language isn't English than there is in Wales ... do you think the English NHS should put compulsion on English chemists to service in every language in the world?  

If your answer to that is 'no', then it's fuck all to do with 'minorities' and everything to do with 'Welsh'. 

As I say, there's an added layer to that.

By your own argument earlier, you reckon only 1 in 10 in your area are native English speakers, so technically (though not officially) that would make English a minority language, in exactly the same way Welsh is.

What language are your prescriptions in?

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, feral chile said:

But all democrats should be interested in social justice.

there's not just your version of social justice.

There's also the social justice of being able to get a medical treatment instead of those resources diverted to language.

There's also the social justice of where the most good might be done for the most people, from their efforts which provide the resources.

Etc, etc, etc.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, feral chile said:

What language are your prescriptions in?

one my chemist can understand.  

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, feral chile said:

By your own argument earlier, you reckon only 1 in 10 in your area are native English speakers, so technically (though not officially) that would make English a minority language, in exactly the same way Welsh is.

that's not quite what I said. I said english would be about 10th in a use-list of languages I hear on my local high street.

Those people get their prescriptions in the commonly-used language of everyone - English (same as in Wales, funnily enough) - even tho the doc's and chemist's  first language might be the same as their own.

[feral chile]

Just now, eFestivals said:

one my chemist can understand.  

Which is?

Are you telling me that all your pharmacists are native English speakers, despite 90% in your area being non native English speakers?

Or do you think that some pharmacists might not have been English born, but expect to be able to understand English prescriptions?

Do you seriously defend, say, a Syrian born pharmacist rejecting prescriptions in English untul they gey translated into his native language?

Because that's what you're calling nationalistic here.

 

 

[feral chile]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

that's not quite what I said. I said english would be about 10th in a use-list of languages I hear on my local high street.

Those people get their prescriptions in the commonly-used language of everyone - English (same as in Wales, funnily enough) - even tho the doc's and chemist's  first language might be the same as their own.

Ok so 1 in 10 use English as their language of choice. Probably because it's a second language.

And yes, exactly as in Wales, English is the dominant culture, thetefore the dominant language.

The reason nobody thinks this is strange, is because English is dominant, despite immigration, in England.

So how can you possibly argue that this is OK in England, because it's England, and OK in Wales, despite it not being England, without recourse to English nationalism?

This is where we disagree. I see this as English nationalism, you see it as Welsh nationalism.

Edited October 27, 2018 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

Spent yesterday in Cardiff.

Didn't hear a single Welsh word spoken.

Heard shit loads of French.

 

 

[eFestivals]

20 hours ago, feral chile said:

Ok so 1 in 10 use English as their language of choice. Probably because it's a second language.

And yes, exactly as in Wales, English is the dominant culture, thetefore the dominant language.

The reason nobody thinks this is strange, is because English is dominant, despite immigration, in England.

So how can you possibly argue that this is OK in England, because it's England, and OK in Wales, despite it not being England, without recourse to English nationalism?

This is where we disagree. I see this as English nationalism, you see it as Welsh nationalism.

nationalist emotion.

Wales can't work in Welsh because wales doesn't speak Welsh. Facts is facts.

Oh, like the 'fact' of Wales being bilingual is a fake fact. It's tokenism - a bit of tokenism on some (just some) signs that costs nothing, while what you're asking for carries a heavy cost.

 

[feral chile]

38 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Spent yesterday in Cardiff.

Didn't hear a single Welsh word spoken.

Heard shit loads of French.

 

 

And?

It's a multicultural city.

I hear lots of languages spoken in Cardiff.

It's usually pretty tolerant too, for all minorities except Welsh.

Just as further North and West, they don't like having to speak English, in South Wales, lots resist even having Welsh on the curriculum.

This is my point. There's an anti Welsh sentiment in Wales. Welsh isn't just a minority in the UK, it is in Wales too.

Edited October 28, 2018 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, feral chile said:

And?

It's a multicultural city.

while there's clearly some, it's not to any extent compared with other places.

 

7 minutes ago, feral chile said:

This is my point. There's an anti Welsh sentiment in Wales. 

which you keep on trying to blame on the English.

[feral chile]

17 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

while there's clearly some, it's not to any extent compared with other places.

 

which you keep on trying to blame on the English.

The inner city areas are.

Anyway, as far as I'm aware, Cardiff is anglicised because of migration, not deliberate attempts to eradicate Welsh.

I'm not blaming anti Welsh sentiment on English people. I'm blaming it on the feeling that English culture is superior. I've said a few times now that England is often more tolerant of Welsh than Wales. You're just not hearing me.

I grew up with non politicised people accepting this, and radicalized people promoting Welsh.

I've experienced both attitudes personally, and see both sides.

I've said this repeatedly, but because you hate nationalism you keep missing my point.

I bet you're more sympathetic to indigenous people outside the UK who were colonised.

 

Edited October 28, 2018 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, feral chile said:

I've said this repeatedly, but because you hate nationalism you keep missing my point.

no.

I just keep pointing at the reality, that it can't work until the Welsh speak Welsh.

All the tools to bring that about in the future are in the hands of Wales. Wales doesn't want to.

While you are prepared to sacrifice many things to force it onto people who don't want it forced onto them in the way you say.

[feral chile]

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

no.

I just keep pointing at the reality, that it can't work until the Welsh speak Welsh.

All the tools to bring that about in the future are in the hands of Wales. Wales doesn't want to.

While you are prepared to sacrifice many things to force it onto people who don't want it forced onto them in the way you say.

You're conflating North and South Wales for starters.

I haven't heard of any prescription problems in South Wales, though I did have a lot of sympathy back in the day for a lady giving birth who couldn't speak English. It must have been terrifying.

[feral chile]

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/pubs-brilliant-response-customer-complaining-14810245

A landlord hit back at a TripAdvisor reviewer who complained customers were speaking Welsh in his Bangor pub.

Reviewer Jon G left the scathing one-star review for The George pub (also known as Y Sior) in Bethesda, Gwynedd, on the travel site last week.

He claimed customers switched from speaking in English to Welsh when he walked into the pub with a group on friends.

In the now-deleted post, Jon G said: "A group of us turned in after a walk in the area. Straight away when we ordered the locals realised we were English and then started talking in Welsh and laughing.

"They then put the jukebox on really loud, so much so we couldn't hear our conversation.

"We drank up and moved to the pub next door.

"So basically, when the other 15 of our group turned up we spent the next few hours drinking and laughing. So their loss really.

"Won't be going back."

In his response, landlord Dewi Sion claimed Jon G had reviewed the wrong pub.

He wrote: "Thank you very much for your review. I can assure you that I very much enjoyed reading it.

"Can I say that I fully empathise with the dilemma that you felt with visiting the/a pub.

"I and a few of my friends have been victims of this exact same scenario whilst on holiday in Hungary, France, Spain and Germany.

"We were absolutely devastated by the fact that when we walked into the bar everyone started conversing in Hungarian, French, Spanish and German instead of Welsh!

"What is surprising though that this is not an uncommon occurrence though as an acquaintance of mine who is from Amadeupcountry who is fluent in Amadeuplanguage once told me of his visit to Shropshire when he became thirsty and in need of a beer.

"He was heartbroken to hear everyone change their language from Amadeuplanguage to English!

"So, as you see, I do apologise for what happened; but to be honest I do feel that you have been just a tiny bit judgemental in your review."

Mr Sion continued to mock the reviewer and said he hopes he never visits the pub again.

"Having said this (because I can't stay mad), you are obviously forgiven because you clearly had no idea where you were,” he wrote.

"The evidence to this is obvious in the fact that this public house does not have a pub within a half a mile radius to it, therefore you could have not possibly gone next door.

"No one in this pub has any recollection of you being here and quite frankly, with an attitude like yours I really hope that you never will.

"But however, if you do come here again/for the first time please introduce yourself in whatever language you choose so long as you understand Welsh for 'get out' and 'bigot'."

 

Edited October 28, 2018 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

17 hours ago, feral chile said:

You're conflating North and South Wales for starters.

not unless you're wanting two different countries called Wales.

 

[feral chile]

3 hours ago, eFestivals said:

not unless you're wanting two different countries called Wales.

 

That's exactly what it's like, 2 languages, transport, road links.....

I've been to England much more than to North Wales, if I ever have been.

Even variations in how Welsh is spoken.

Edited October 29, 2018 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

17 minutes ago, feral chile said:

That's exactly what it's like, 2 languages, transport, road links.....

two sets of vehicles and two sets of roads? I must have missed seeing those at the weekend. Where are they hiding?  

[feral chile]

44 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

two sets of vehicles and two sets of roads? I must have missed seeing those at the weekend. Where are they hiding?  

Sorry meant poor links.

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, feral chile said:

Sorry meant poor links.

that bastard geography, eh? Must hate the Welsh, bet it's English.

[feral chile]

21 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

that bastard geography, eh? Must hate the Welsh, bet it's English.

You're the only one wanting to make it about 'the English'.