Football 18/19

[pink_triangle]

18 hours ago, CRW5252 said:

I completely disagree with this. It is Uefa's responsibility to pick a suitable location for the final. Baku is possibly the worst place in Europe for the final to be placed. 

There really should be something in place where if the teams in the final of a European competition are both in the same nation, it is just played in that nation. 

Keeping the final in Baku is good for no one but Azerbaijan and UEFA. It is terrible for the fans, players and environment. 

I have more sympathy that it is a poor location than it should be moved because of the player. However of all the things wrong with football playing this match in Baku is way down my list. I hope Arsenal win and suspect if they do the fans will be happy.

[CRW5252]

3 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

I have more sympathy that it is a poor location than it should be moved because of the player. 

I think it is appalling that the final of the competition is being placed in a area where people from a particular nation don't feel safe. I wonder if you would feel the same if it was the English players that were scared to go out there due to the political tensions. 

3 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

However of all the things wrong with football playing this match in Baku is way down my list. 

The final being in Baku highlights some of the main problems with football: it is all about money, there is no consideration for fans and UEFA aren't fit for purpose. Solving these problems is right at the top of my list.

3 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

I hope Arsenal win and suspect if they do the fans will be happy.

Of course they will be happy to win. There is no way Arsenal fans will just move on from this treatment from UEFA though. 

[zahidf]

12 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

I have more sympathy that it is a poor location than it should be moved because of the player. However of all the things wrong with football playing this match in Baku is way down my list. I hope Arsenal win and suspect if they do the fans will be happy.

So if a gay player choses not to play in Qatar 2022 because of security issues? Is that below your list of problems In football?:-/

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, zahidf said:

So if a gay player choses not to play in Qatar 2022 because of security issues? Is that below your list of problems In football?:-/

slightly different thing. There's always going to be issues that exist between some countries.

And in this case the host country has said it can guarantee security, but the player doesn't feel able to accept that assurance.

It was a bad choice of country for lots of reasons, but then again all countries within UEFA should have the opportunity to host UEFA finals. 

[zahidf]

21 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

slightly different thing. There's always going to be issues that exist between some countries.

And in this case the host country has said it can guarantee security, but the player doesn't feel able to accept that assurance.

It was a bad choice of country for lots of reasons, but then again all countries within UEFA should have the opportunity to host UEFA finals. 

Well, the host country said he's safe as long as he 'sticks to football' which isn't the most reassuring statement ever!

I'd say a country with a dodgy regime and complete lack of airport facilities isn't the best place for a European final:-/

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, zahidf said:

Well, the host country said he's safe as long as he 'sticks to football' which isn't the most reassuring statement ever!

he's there to play football, not start a political campaign. 

 

1 minute ago, zahidf said:

I'd say a country with a dodgy regime and complete lack of airport facilities isn't the best place for a European final:-/

It's got airport facilities, just not enough flights from the UK & Europe.  

And without giving any endorsement to the regime, what is a dodgy regime is a matter of opinion. It's not a great basis for how to work stuff away from politics as there's elements to just about all countries each of us might find objectionable.

(that's not me saying sporting boycotts can never be justified, just to make it clear).

If a country is welcome within UEFA then I can't really see why it should be excluded from full UEFA involvement, such as hosting finals. 

[zahidf]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

he's there to play football, not start a political campaign. 

 

It's got airport facilities, just not enough flights from the UK & Europe.  

And without giving any endorsement to the regime, what is a dodgy regime is a matter of opinion. It's not a great basis for how to work stuff away from politics as there's elements to just about all countries each of us might find objectionable.

(that's not me saying sporting boycotts can never be justified, just to make it clear).

If a country is welcome within UEFA then I can't really see why it should be excluded from full UEFA involvement, such as hosting finals. 

He isn't going to start a political campaign, but they specifically had a go at him for visiting a contested area a few years ago. That's very much a threat IMO.

Same (approximate) justification for Qatar 2022 isn't it:-)

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, zahidf said:

He isn't going to start a political campaign, but they specifically had a go at him for visiting a contested area a few years ago. That's very much a threat IMO.

Same (approximate) justification for Qatar 2022 isn't it:-)

footy attempts to keep itself separate from politics.

And people like you are the reason why. You'd quickly have a long list of countries you'd like excluded, and those with opposite political views to you would have a list of very different names.

It would quickly become very stupid trying to run an international organisation on an exclusionary basis.

[pink_triangle]

9 hours ago, CRW5252 said:

I think it is appalling that the final of the competition is being placed in a area where people from a particular nation don't feel safe. I wonder if you would feel the same if it was the English players that were scared to go out there due to the political tensions. 

 

I think it's disappointing, but at the same time I wouldn't give a veto to a player in terms of where a match can be played. No different if English or Welsh.

 

9 hours ago, CRW5252 said:

 

The final being in Baku highlights some of the main problems with football: it is all about money, there is no consideration for fans and UEFA aren't fit for purpose. Solving these problems is right at the top of my list.

 

While it's true it's all about money, we shouldn't forget that money is also the main factor why we have an Arsenal v Chelsea final. I didnt see either set of fans complaining about the significant financial advantages they had over other teams in the tournament.

These clubs have regularly supported moves to increase the inequality between the top and the bottom. Fans (with small exceptions) have been quite happy when the money side has worked in their favour. To me when talking about finances in football inequality is way bigger an issue then where they play the cup final.

[pink_triangle]

56 minutes ago, zahidf said:

So if a gay player choses not to play in Qatar 2022 because of security issues? Is that below your list of problems In football?:-/

I wouldn't cancel the tournament because a gay footballer wouldn't play in Qatar, but I would feel great sympathy for the player.

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, zahidf said:

So if a gay player choses not to play in Qatar 2022 because of his perception of security issues? Is that below your list of problems In football?:-/

Corrected for you.

No one will know if there are any issues until the tournament happens. That's simply how it is - in all countries for all tournaments.

And I'd say footie itself has a much bigger problem with attitudes towards gays than Qatar has - for all of the while players are not coming out (and if what i heard is true, they're encouraged by their clubs not to come out).

[CRW5252]

27 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I think it's disappointing, but at the same time I wouldn't give a veto to a player in terms of where a match can be played. No different if English or Welsh.

I completely disagree, I certainly would rule that location out. Mkhirtaryan is going to miss one of the biggest games in his career due to the discrimination that is prominent in Azerbaijan. That's very, very sad.  

28 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

While it's true it's all about money, we shouldn't forget that money is also the main factor why we have an Arsenal v Chelsea final. I didnt see either set of fans complaining about the significant financial advantages they had over other teams in the tournament.

These clubs have regularly supported moves to increase the inequality between the top and the bottom. Fans (with small exceptions) have been quite happy when the money side has worked in their favour. To me when talking about finances in football inequality is way bigger an issue then where they play the cup final.

They are completely different issues and I don't think either should be overlooked just because of the current state of football.

I'd ask you to just place yourself as a fan of either Arsenal or Chelsea who's gone to all their respective games this season. The final being in Baku means that many of these type of fans can no longer attend the culmination of the season and if they do attend they will have to spend an absolute fortune. It's just disgusting and, for me, highlights some of the key problems with modern football. 

[CRW5252]

41 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I wouldn't cancel the tournament because a gay footballer wouldn't play in Qatar, but I would feel great sympathy for the player.

That's a bizzare attitude. As a society, we are trying to encourage acceptability of homosexuality. Placing one of the biggest sport tournaments in the world at a country where homosexuality is illegal is sending out a terrible message. 

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, CRW5252 said:

That's a bizzare attitude. As a society, we are trying to encourage acceptability of homosexuality. Placing one of the biggest sport tournaments in the world at a country where homosexuality is illegal is sending out a terrible message. 

In the case of a world football tournament "society" is all of the world, and all of the world doesn't hold the same views towards anything. 

If your attitudes applied, there couldn't be a world anything. It would always be just the bits of the world that agreed with each other.

[CRW5252]

25 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

No one will know if there are any issues until the tournament happens. That's simply how it is - in all countries for all tournaments.

The fact homosexuality is illegal highlights there will be problems for any openly gay people that decide to travel over there.

FIFA placing the World Cup in Qatar has effectively banned any openly gay people attending the World Cup 2022. 

[zahidf]

52 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

footy attempts to keep itself separate from politics.

And people like you are the reason why. You'd quickly have a long list of countries you'd like excluded, and those with opposite political views to you would have a list of very different names.

It would quickly become very stupid trying to run an international organisation on an exclusionary basis.

In this case, it's the host country having a go at the players politics...

I don't think expecting gay fans and footballer to not be excluded due to fears of their own safety  from attending a world cup is at all unreasonable. If a host country wants to host an international tournament, then they need to comply with broad international standards on stuff like that.

[zahidf]

50 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I wouldn't cancel the tournament because a gay footballer wouldn't play in Qatar, but I would feel great sympathy for the player.

And gay fans? Or match officials?

[CRW5252]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

In the case of a world football tournament "society" is all of the world, and all of the world doesn't hold the same views towards anything. 

If your attitudes applied, there couldn't be a world anything. It would always be just the bits of the world that agreed with each other.

The society of the world is, in general, is pushing towards the acceptability of homosexuality. You can see this by the increasing LGBT rights all over the world. I think FIFA should be part of this push to.

Edited May 23, 2019 by CRW5252

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, zahidf said:

In this case, it's the host country having a go at the players politics...

Or alternatively, the player having a go at them first by visiting a disputed area.

Whatever, the country have said it doesn't matter for football.

Would be expect any country to call out something political they objected to? Of course we would.

 

1 minute ago, zahidf said:

If a host country wants to host an international tournament, then they need to comply with broad international standards on stuff like that.

but it's not "a broad international standard", no matter how much you wish it was.

It's been a 'standard' in the UK for less than 10 years. Why do you think every other country has to jump at the same moment we do?

You might as well be saying that Dubia shouldn't arrest people for drinking alcohol, as drinking alcohol is a "broad international standard". It's certainly a broader international standard than acceptance of homosexuality is.  

[lost]

Its not just homosexuality. Unmarried hetrosexual intercourse is illegal too in Qatar. So the same restrictions apply to players like John Stones, Jordan Pickford, Harry Maguire.

Adultery the penalty is death (good job John Terry isn't playing!)

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, CRW5252 said:

The society of the world is, in general, is pushing towards the acceptability of homosexuality. You can see this by the increasing LGBT rights all over the world. I think FIFA should be part of this push to.

FIFA is a football organisation.  It has to operate in the real world.

And while the 'society of the world' might be pushing for better gay rights, that's not the case with all of the nation states that are part of that football organisation.

If FIFA need to be acting on this, they firstly need to be acting within football.

Edited May 23, 2019 by eFestivals

[CRW5252]

Just now, eFestivals said:

FIFA is a football organisation.  It has to operate in the real world.

And while the 'society of the world' might be pushing for better gay rights, that's not the case with all of the nation states that are part of that football organisation.

If FIFA need to be acting on this, they firstly need to be acting within football.

I think they should act within football and also where they place their tournaments. We'll agree to disagree.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, CRW5252 said:

I think they should act within football and also where they place their tournaments. We'll agree to disagree.

why would the members who'd never get FIFA benefits (such as tournaments) remain members of FIFA?

This is the real world FIFA has to operate in. Either the whole world is welcome, or it's no longer a whole-world footballing organisation.

[jyoung]

Antonio Conte to Inter then. He's interested in Lukaku and Moses apparently. I wouldn't be surprised if he manages to be the one to topple Juve. Particularly if Sarri moves to Juve.

[CRW5252]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

why would the members who'd never get FIFA benefits (such as tournaments) remain members of FIFA?

So they can play in the world cup... Not all countries in FIFA will want to host a World Cup, many will know it isn't viable (primarily due to economic reasons).

2 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

This is the real world FIFA has to operate in. Either the whole world is welcome, or it's no longer a whole-world footballing organisation.

The whole world is welcome to be a member of FIFA but that doesn't mean they are all suitable to host the World Cup.