Football 18/19

[mjsell]

Some Sunday league quality of goals last night (yesterday). Specifically Senegal's second. 

Own goal is doing well for the golden boot as well

[pink_triangle]

5 hours ago, CRW5252 said:

I completely disagree. Traditional British (and more specifically English) football is rigid and direct with deep defensive lines (think 4-4-2 and big man, little man up front). Against Tunisia we played very fluid, high pressing and short passing football. The style we played against Tunisia couldn't be more different than a typical British style. Forgive me if I sound patronising, but I don't think this is debatable. It is fact. A book called Inverting the Pyramid is a great read and will detail better than I ever could the progress (or lack of) of British (and more specifically English) football tactics. I recommend you read it if you are interested. 

I'm not basing this one game on how good a job Southgate has done. I have been very impressed with his philosophy and the way he carries himself. He is a huge advocate for stamping out the old fashion attitudes a lot of the English have regarding football tactics and encourages a international style (fluid, high pressing, short passing, wing backs etc...). He is passionate about young players and that can be seen by his time working with the England youth teams. I found this interview very interesting and it may make you think differently about Southgate:

 

I can't agree about the formation, you sound like England have only ever played 4-4-2 before, I have seen them play different formations. Also I would dispute a pressing game is particularly modern, there are modern teams with a whole host of different styles.  I'm not convinced pressing is a great way to play in a tournament, I think the majority of times these things will be won by teams more able to conserve energy.

I don't think any particular way about Southgate. Like all England managers he will be judged on results in international tournaments. I don't have the evidence to draw conclusions. He may be good, average, terrible. Can he change his tactics in a big knockout game to change the match? Time will tell.

[Hugh Jass]

6 hours ago, mjsell said:

Own goal is doing well for the golden boot as well

Hopefully Richard Dunne would come out to receive the boot.

[fred quimby]

I'll just say that Peru have become my second team for the world cup. Really liked how they played and were somewhat unlucky. Hope they get out the group now

[CRW5252]

3 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

I can't agree about the formation, you sound like England have only ever played 4-4-2 before, I have seen them play different formations. Also I would dispute a pressing game is particularly modern, there are modern teams with a whole host of different styles.  I'm not convinced pressing is a great way to play in a tournament, I think the majority of times these things will be won by teams more able to conserve energy.

I don't think any particular way about Southgate. Like all England managers he will be judged on results in international tournaments. I don't have the evidence to draw conclusions. He may be good, average, terrible. Can he change his tactics in a big knockout game to change the match? Time will tell.

I think you are missing the point slightly. I am not saying that the English (I am going to stop say British because Scotland and England traditionally have different styles of play) have only ever played 4-4-2. That formation alongside a rigid, direct style of football is a great example of how we traditionally play. It doesn't mean it is the only way we have ever played. Over the last 15-20 years, we have seen the national team somewhat influenced by international football. This is mainly due to the influx of foreign players and managers in the Premier League. What we have not seen until now though is a coach who has a philosophy which revolves around playing a modern, international style. 

Pressing is very much modern. It was pretty much non-existent at any level until around the 80s. Sacchi was one of the first managers to popularise pressing and that was in the late 80s. Watch a game from the 60s-70s and look how much time everyone had on the ball.

I think this statement from you shows a level of naivety: "I'm not convinced pressing is a great way to play in a tournament, I think the majority of times these things will be won by teams more able to conserve energy." Firstly, pretty much every team presses in some capacity nowadays. Secondly, there are plenty of examples of high pressing being hugely effective in tournament football. The last 3 World Cup winners all used pressing as a vital part of their tactic. Lastly, if you have the right team for it and play the system effectively it will often be the opposition team who are struggling to conserve their energy due to their lack of possession. 

Yes, I agree regarding Southgate. He has given me reason to be optimistic, particularly about future major tournaments. A decent showing in this World Cup will give us something to build on.

[JSmurphy]

Watching Uruguay is just painful.

[Ted Dansons Wig]

If you're really evil in this life - do you have to watch endless Uruguay games after you die?

[kaosmark2]

So much for me thinking they'd be a trio of hammerings today.

[dentalplan]

Iran are playing pretty fearlessly. If they go out then it's a shame they got planted in this group.

[JSmurphy]

That VAR ruling was tough on Iran. Correct tho.

Yes, Yes, well done Iran. Well done Iran.

HOWEVER

Edited June 20, 2018 by JSmurphy

[kaosmark2]

It's Head-to-Head then goal difference right? So even if Spain lose and Iran draw with Portugal then Spain are through over Iran?

[pink_triangle]

10 hours ago, CRW5252 said:

I think you are missing the point slightly. I am not saying that the English (I am going to stop say British because Scotland and England traditionally have different styles of play) have only ever played 4-4-2. That formation alongside a rigid, direct style of football is a great example of how we traditionally play. It doesn't mean it is the only way we have ever played. Over the last 15-20 years, we have seen the national team somewhat influenced by international football. This is mainly due to the influx of foreign players and managers in the Premier League. What we have not seen until now though is a coach who has a philosophy which revolves around playing a modern, international style. 

Pressing is very much modern. It was pretty much non-existent at any level until around the 80s. Sacchi was one of the first managers to popularise pressing and that was in the late 80s. Watch a game from the 60s-70s and look how much time everyone had on the ball.

 

As I said I don’t see much difference in the way England played against Tunisiavand Wales with the same final outcome. It got me thinking if there is an English and British style. I have always considered Wales as England with less/worse players. To me one big difference between England and Scotland  ( and to a slightly lesser extent Wales) is the former is a lot more diverse as a country, with significantly more (even forgetting the huge population difference) black athletic footballers. England have therefore been able to implement pace more than the other home nations.

 

10 hours ago, CRW5252 said:

I think you are missing the point slightly. I am not saying that the English (I am going to stop say British because Scotland and England traditionally have different styles of play) have only ever played 4-4-2. That formation alongside a rigid, direct style of football is a great example of how we traditionally play. It doesn't mean it is the only way we have ever played. Over the last 15-20 years, we have seen the national team somewhat influenced by international football. This is mainly due to the influx of foreign players and managers in the Premier League. What we have not seen until now though is a coach who has a philosophy which revolves around playing a modern, international style. 

Pressing is very much modern. It was pretty much non-existent at any level until around the 80s. Sacchi was one of the first managers to popularise pressing and that was in the late 80s. Watch a game from the 60s-70s and look how much time everyone had on the ball.

I think this statement from you shows a level of naivety: "I'm not convinced pressing is a great way to play in a tournament, I think the majority of times these things will be won by teams more able to conserve energy." Firstly, pretty much every team presses in some capacity nowadays. Secondly, there are plenty of examples of high pressing being hugely effective in tournament football. The last 3 World Cup winners all used pressing as a vital part of their tactic. Lastly, if you have the right team for it and play the system effectively it will often be the opposition team who are struggling to conserve their energy due to their lack of possession. 

I think you have a point and should have probably said England’s style of pressing. To me it’s difficult to compare the games of England and Spain. While the latter may press I feel there is more tactical discipline to the pressing. I still feel England have a tendency to go too hard too fast, get tired and then spend the game doing the same thing hoping it will eventually work, To me the lack of the top Central midfielder who can control the game is a huge miss.

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, dentalplan said:

Iran are playing pretty fearlessly. If they go out then it's a shame they got planted in this group.

In the group stage you know most of the non Europe/ South America teams are only going 3 games, but I want to see them at least go for it. In my mind the smaller teams looked better in 2014, but maybe I’m looking through rose tinted glasses as I loved that group stage.

[pink_triangle]

3 hours ago, JSmurphy said:

Watching Uruguay is just painful.

A bit like Portugal in the last Euros! I think the commentators said no yellow cards yet. It’s pretty much job done for them, I doubt they care about finishing first or second which takes pressure off.

[kaosmark2]

24 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

In the group stage you know most of the non Europe/ South America teams are only going 3 games, but I want to see them at least go for it. 

Group H may have no teams from Europe or South America go through!

[Gucci Piggy]

2 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

It's Head-to-Head then goal difference right? So even if Spain lose and Iran draw with Portugal then Spain are through over Iran?

Nah it's goal difference.

[CRW5252]

2 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

As I said I don’t see much difference in the way England played against Tunisiavand Wales with the same final outcome. It got me thinking if there is an English and British style. I have always considered Wales as England with less/worse players. To me one big difference between England and Scotland  ( and to a slightly lesser extent Wales) is the former is a lot more diverse as a country, with significantly more (even forgetting the huge population difference) black athletic footballers. England have therefore been able to implement pace more than the other home nations.

The formation against Wales in 2016 was a 4-3-3 and was rigid. Hodgson is known to be an advocate of structured teams who keep their shape. England vs Tunisa was completely different, we played a 3-5-2 and it was very fluid. The whole system is built around playing out from defense. 

 

2 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

I think you have a point and should have probably said England’s style of pressing. To me it’s difficult to compare the games of England and Spain. While the latter may press I feel there is more tactical discipline to the pressing. I still feel England have a tendency to go too hard too fast, get tired and then spend the game doing the same thing hoping it will eventually work, To me the lack of the top Central midfielder who can control the game is a huge miss.

Where is the evidence we go "too hard too fast"? 

I agree regarding the central midfielder. We have a few promising midfield coming through so fingers crossed they live up to expectations. 

[mjsell]

I wouldn't describe England's current system as 'very fluid'. I get what you are saying though, but it's actually a fairly structured set-up in order to allow 2 or 3 players more of a license to roam and rotate. 

Lunch break round up of last nights fixtures: Bit gutted for Iran. I had Spain as the most impressive team from the first round of fixtures despite the draw - but it's just another sign that no team is going to stroll through the tournament this year. 

 

[pink_triangle]

3 hours ago, mjsell said:

I wouldn't describe England's current system as 'very fluid'. I get what you are saying though, but it's actually a fairly structured set-up in order to allow 2 or 3 players more of a license to roam and rotate. 

Lunch break round up of last nights fixtures: Bit gutted for Iran. I had Spain as the most impressive team from the first round of fixtures despite the draw - but it's just another sign that no team is going to stroll through the tournament this year. 

 

Spain still look in control to me. I can't remember a team ever strolling to an international tournament.

[pink_triangle]

6 hours ago, CRW5252 said:

The formation against Wales in 2016 was a 4-3-3 and was rigid. Hodgson is known to be an advocate of structured teams who keep their shape. England vs Tunisa was completely different, we played a 3-5-2 and it was very fluid. The whole system is built around playing out from defense. 

 

Where is the evidence we go "too hard too fast"? 

I agree regarding the central midfielder. We have a few promising midfield coming through so fingers crossed they live up to expectations. 

I just didn't see this fluidity you saw, but we will have to agree to disagree! No evidence but just an opinion from my years watching England.

[eFestivals]

56 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Spain still look in control to me. I can't remember a team ever strolling to an international tournament.

and yet they couldn't stroll a goal. The one they got was somewhat lucky.

They were clearly a better team than Iran, but once Iran went behind they started to show themselves as a decent team with more to them than 11 men behind the ball. If their finishing was slightly better Spain might have been embarrassed.

[zahidf]

29 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

and yet they couldn't stroll a goal. The one they got was somewhat lucky.

They were clearly a better team than Iran, but once Iran went behind they started to show themselves as a decent team with more to them than 11 men behind the ball. If their finishing was slightly better Spain might have been embarrassed.

TBH, considering how morroco and iran played, i think portugal and spain still arent out of the woods. 

[pink_triangle]

29 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

and yet they couldn't stroll a goal. The one they got was somewhat lucky.

They were clearly a better team than Iran, but once Iran went behind they started to show themselves as a decent team with more to them than 11 men behind the ball. If their finishing was slightly better Spain might have been embarrassed.

We will never know if they would have got a goal if needed. I think Spain are happy to take the 1-0 and trust their defence.

[ThomThomDrum]

Iran's defensive performance, structure and discipline was very impressive to me. There are very few teams if any in the world that would not have suffered the same frustrations as Spain up against such.

What surprised me even more was Iran's response to going 1-0 down. They looked to have something about them at times going forward and were actually unlucky not to have scored themselves. However, if they had tried to attack Spain from the get go they could have left themselves open to a slaughtering, so it was a wise tactic to play as they did IMO and it nearly paid off. 

Spain, like England the other night, did what they had to do against a tough set up from the opponent. I would not be worried about Spain going forward I dont think. They are still one of, if not the strongest team in the competition, irrespective of only beating Iran 1-0 with what could be viewed as a pretty lucky goal.   

Edited June 21, 2018 by ThomThomDrum

[jyoung]

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/worldcup/england-line-up-vs-panama-gareth-southgate-reveals-plans-for-world-cup-2018-xi-by-mistake-a3868506.html?utm_campaign=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1529575477\

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