Designing a bespoke festival trolley for Glastonbury

[Andrew_Ntu]

Looking for any advice/suggestions/input for my product design 4th year university project! 

I'm designing a festival trolley to transport your gear from the car to the tent, i'm going to start manufacturing a prototype next month.

I'm sure you guys are familiar with the current offerings and see them scattered around the walkways on your way to your camp. The four wheel ones are basically garden trolleys marketed as festival trolleys, they aren't designed for heavy loads and stacking high. More suited for short distances. And the two wheeled sack carts that are designed for a warehouse environments.

For transporting it there, it will either be collapsible to fit into the boot of a car or sit ontop of the car like a roof rack, ideally without requiring roof bars to be fitted.
I'm also thinking of having it serve as a chair as a secondary function....although i'm concentrating on making it a festival trolley that works at the moment.
I've also considered it functioning as a cooler box too...although i'm unsure on how many people would want this feature? Thoughts?

I've attached a quick sketch of my current design which highlights the desired features can be seen below, and i've written out my justifications of each feature.
Let me know any further features that might be desirable too. 

Four wheels: For greater stability, although i have considered three wheels too.
Pneumatic or semi-pneumatic rubber tires: Unsure which to go for yet, although semi-pneumatic has better puncture resistance. 
Two handles: One at the front, one at the back, allowing for both push and pull. Pushing will be the primary method as it is more ergonomic. The handle at the front is for a second user to assist pulling uphill and over rough terrain.
Ratchet straps: Bungee cords are popular but I imagine incorporating some fixed ratchet straps which have a larger surface area should be better at securing the load. Hopefully this will put people off from using seran wrap and duct tape, which has environmental implications.
Breaks: Users i've spoken too have expressed struggles when going downhill. Adding breaks should help better the control. (these will also have a lock mechanism to prevent theft)
Mud guards - Unsure about these as people have reported wood chippings clogging up between the guards and wheels which jam it.

I've been looking at fishing trollies for inspiration, and buggies for collapsible systems. Any suggestions of where else to look?

Additionally, rhe shape of the trolley and collapsible system is not yet finalised. I'm still unsure if it'll be a bare metal frame or canvas.

My tutors suggested having a base in which modular attachments can be purchased for the trolley. E.g. if you're travelling as a large group a more heavy duty frame can be attached to the base, whereas a smaller group could opt for a smaller version. Although i disagree with this, as i imagine users would want to put as much on their trolley as possible to save their back, no matter how small or large your group is. What are your guys thoughts on this?

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

Hello Andrew,

Hopefully you'll get more of a response here. However it is late on a Sunday, so be patient.

My own views are that I like the collapsible element. Personally I would go for pneumatic tyres as they will absorb the shocks more over rough terrain.

The one thing you notice with a lot of discarded trolleys is that their axles have broken, the bearings within the wheels have given way, or the pins holding on the wheels have distorted. It's an area that you'd want to put some major thought in to, as any successful trolley needs to overcome these weak areas.

On the whole though, I like it.

[Reckoner]

YOAS above has the main points regarding the wheels/axle. The other thing i always see is that you need some type of mud guard or something that assists with removing debris allowing the wheel to continue to spin when crossing ground that isn't flat or doesn't have the metal grates down as many of the trolleys will end up getting clogged with mud/grass between the wheel/axle, the wheel stops being able to spin and failure soon follows.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Gregfc15

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

17 minutes ago, Gregfc15 said:

YOAS above has the main points regarding the wheels/axle. The other thing i always see is that you need some type of mud guard or something that assists with removing debris the wheel continuing to spin when crossing ground that isn't flat or doesn't have the metal grates down as many of the trolleys will end up getting clogged with mud/grass between the wheel/axle and the wheel stops being able to spin.

Good point.

[bombfrog]

I have lots of thoughts on this having used the same 4 wheeler since 2005 (yep, it's still going strong), but it's late so I'll write something longer tomorrow if I can.

[marathonsteve]

Massive big wheels

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

11 minutes ago, marathonsteve said:

Massive big wheels

Another good idea.

[Avalon_Fields]

One of our gang, 2010, made a motorised trolley. Completely useless, got stuck in the mud, and the battery was too weak so we had to push it most of the way. 

[squirrelarmy]

If Glastonbury does get muddy, the wheels will get clogged up. Have you got a plan for dealing with removing a wheel if necessary to clear off excess mud. The risk there is a more complex wheel assembly can create more weak spots. 

[paulshane]

bigger wheels, and lose the mud guards. 20inch BMX wheels would be my choice.

 

four wheels would be best, as you don't need to 'lift' the trolley, but if you decide on two, make it balanced, like a caravan, not like a wheelbarrow, so its easier to get going.

[morph100]

Could you swap the wheels for tank track style thingys? they would probably be better for the rough terrain, sometimes they come in triangle shapes, no idea why but I would have thought that would be the best.

Loving the push and pull handles as its often a team effort!

Sometimes people stack them quite high, maybe some sides that can raise up?

Fairy lights and cushions and it would turn into a child buggy as well 🙂

Drinks holder? can be thirsty work.

 

[morph100]

Cool box area or attachment would be great! makes it more useful once you arrive at your destination the same as turning it into a kid buggy.

Any anti theft device? could be quite a desirable item to leave at your tent.....

[henry bear]

[Mark E. Spliff]

As mentioned a few times already, the wheels are the key thing.  They need to be large diameter to roll over ruts, reasonably strong and have wide tyres to cope with mud.  To make wheels that fit those criteria as well as being light is a specialist skill from the world of cycling.  Here's a very knowledgeable guy building exactly the sort of wheel you want and demonstrating how mind-bendingly complex this seemingly simple task can be:

Once you've got the wheels sorted, then everything else should be dead simple.  As far as I can see, it needs to be a 2-wheel/rickshaw type layout for stability reasons.  (4 wheels are great on flat surfaces but, unless you've fitted a heavy/complicated suspension system, would suck anywhere else.)

(I appreciate this is a bit OTT for a trolley, but that's probably a good thing if you're trying to score points on your Uni project.)

[Splonk]

I wombled one of these from Pylon Ground in 2019.

It's the perfect trolley - it cruises over rough terrain, has plenty of storage, and quality build so the wheels don't fall off.

[oneeye]

Prams are the way ahead.

This has been my festival trolley for over 10 years, still going strong. Spud pneumatic steerable tyres. Has never let me down, whatever the ground conditions. Best £9 I ever spent (ebay). Just need bundgy straps and away you go, steer with one hand, cider in the other 😎

[Andrew_Ntu]

11 hours ago, Yoghurt on a Stick said:

Hello Andrew,

Hopefully you'll get more of a response here. However it is late on a Sunday, so be patient.

My own views are that I like the collapsible element. Personally I would go for pneumatic tyres as they will absorb the shocks more over rough terrain.

The one thing you notice with a lot of discarded trolleys is that their axles have broken, the bearings within the wheels have given way, or the pins holding on the wheels have distorted. It's an area that you'd want to put some major thought in to, as any successful trolley needs to overcome these weak areas.

On the whole though, I like it.

Agree with you here, i've seen the same. I'll be sure to work my way with this in mind. 

11 hours ago, Gregfc15 said:

YOAS above has the main points regarding the wheels/axle. The other thing i always see is that you need some type of mud guard or something that assists with removing debris allowing the wheel to continue to spin when crossing ground that isn't flat or doesn't have the metal grates down as many of the trolleys will end up getting clogged with mud/grass between the wheel/axle, the wheel stops being able to spin and failure soon follows.

Are you saying it's the mud guards which are creating problems as mud gets clogged up between them and the wheel? One of my friends had this same problem where it stopped spinning. In that case, do you think having a large clearance between the wheel and frame of the trolley be enough?

10 hours ago, bombfrog said:

I have lots of thoughts on this having used the same 4 wheeler since 2005 (yep, it's still going strong), but it's late so I'll write something longer tomorrow if I can.

Would be really valuable to know the pros and cons of your trolley so i know what to avoid and what works well. How do you find the four wheels on the festival terrain? I'm still a bit undecided on whether 4 or 3 (one at the front two at the back) would be best. 

 

[Andrew_Ntu]

5 hours ago, Avalon_Fields said:

One of our gang, 2010, made a motorised trolley. Completely useless, got stuck in the mud, and the battery was too weak so we had to push it most of the way. 

Ah think i'll be staying away from an electric version! How did these wheels hold up though? Were they okay? I was thinking of using wider ones with a larger surface area.

4 hours ago, squirrelarmy said:

If Glastonbury does get muddy, the wheels will get clogged up. Have you got a plan for dealing with removing a wheel if necessary to clear off excess mud. The risk there is a more complex wheel assembly can create more weak spots. 

Good point, do you know what part of the wheel it is that gets clogged up? Also they'll likely be removable when it comes to getting it into the car and for cleaning after the festival. Additionally I want to make it easy for users to repair punctures to keep in-line with sustainaiblity.

2 hours ago, morph100 said:

Could you swap the wheels for tank track style thingys? they would probably be better for the rough terrain, sometimes they come in triangle shapes, no idea why but I would have thought that would be the best.

Loving the push and pull handles as its often a team effort!

Sometimes people stack them quite high, maybe some sides that can raise up?

Fairy lights and cushions and it would turn into a child buggy as well 🙂

Drinks holder? can be thirsty work.

 

Thanks! Those tracks look cool! That would be interesting, I wonder how heavy and how costly that would be though 😬 
I agree, i've seen loads of people stacking high too, i'll look at incorporating some adjustable sides.
Yeah good point, could look into a buggy for those family friendly festivals for further development.

As for Anti-theft, i've considered either having some sort of tire locking mechanism, as there will be breaks on it anyway or some sort of anchor into the ground, like a stake that it can be locked into? I think i want to avoid saying "just store it in your tent".

 

1 hour ago, Splonk said:

I wombled one of these from Pylon Ground in 2019.

It's the perfect trolley - it cruises over rough terrain, has plenty of storage, and quality build so the wheels don't fall off.

This looks good, i'll look into this.
Does it turn by pivoting it on it's back two wheels?
How do the wheels hold up? Are they better than those smaller pneumatic tires you can get? 

56 minutes ago, oneeye said:

Prams are the way ahead.

This has been my festival trolley for over 10 years, still going strong. Spud pneumatic steerable tyres. Has never let me down, whatever the ground conditions. Best £9 I ever spent (ebay). Just need bundgy straps and away you go, steer with one hand, cider in the other 😎

This looks great man, £9 what a deal. How does the steering work? Do the front two rotate freely? 

[Andrew_Ntu]

1 hour ago, Mark E. Spliff said:

As mentioned a few times already, the wheels are the key thing.  They need to be large diameter to roll over ruts, reasonably strong and have wide tyres to cope with mud.  To make wheels that fit those criteria as well as being light is a specialist skill from the world of cycling.  Here's a very knowledgeable guy building exactly the sort of wheel you want and demonstrating how mind-bendingly complex this seemingly simple task can be:

Once you've got the wheels sorted, then everything else should be dead simple.  As far as I can see, it needs to be a 2-wheel/rickshaw type layout for stability reasons.  (4 wheels are great on flat surfaces but, unless you've fitted a heavy/complicated suspension system, would suck anywhere else.)

(I appreciate this is a bit OTT for a trolley, but that's probably a good thing if you're trying to score points on your Uni project.)

Wow that looks very complex, @paulshane suggested similiar with 20 inch BMX tires, do you think those would suffice? 
Although i've got to keep compactability in mind, I might actually have to go for better suspension if it'll allow me to get smaller tires on.

I'm still quite unsure about how many wheels to go for. I'm worried about balancing issues with two wheels but I know what you mean about four wheels on uneven ground.

What are your thoughts on three wheels also? I've seen this fishing barrow which has some great reviews.
TF Gear Juggernaut, All terrain carp fishing barrow.
For manoeuvring, the user puts their weight on the handles and it lifts the trolley up, pivoting on the two back wheels. 

 

[paulshane]

1 minute ago, Andrew_Ntu said:

Wow that looks very complex, @paulshane suggested similiar with 20 inch BMX tires, do you think those would suffice? 
Although i've got to keep compactability in mind, I might actually have to go for better suspension if it'll allow me to get smaller tires on.

I'm still quite unsure about how many wheels to go for. I'm worried about balancing issues with two wheels but I know what you mean about four wheels on uneven ground.

What are your thoughts on three wheels also? I've seen this fishing barrow which has some great reviews.
TF Gear Juggernaut, All terrain carp fishing barrow.
For manoeuvring, the user puts their weight on the handles and it lifts the trolley up, pivoting on the two back wheels. 

 

You need to design something that will be easy to push/pull through potentially gooey mud. Design something that will work ok in soft sand, and you'll be on target.

Fishing trolleys and the like are geared towards rough terrain, not deep sloppy mud, smaller wheels will end up ploughing not turning, making progress difficult. Cheapo 20inch plastic bmx wheels will work fine.

 

This is something I made for a 'soapbox' race last year:

 

 

obviously waaaay too big for the festival, but it shows how I mounted big wheels (these are actually motorbike wheels, but the same size as a bike)

 

 

 

 

[Gnomicide]

A spare wheel that can easily be changed if you get a puncture, preferably without having to unload the trolley.

[Splonk]

21 minutes ago, Andrew_Ntu said:

This looks good, i'll look into this.

Does it turn by pivoting it on it's back two wheels?
How do the wheels hold up? Are they better than those smaller pneumatic tires you can get? 

 

I believe the front wheel turns and they hold up really well.

As others have mentioned mud/ woodchips can get into the wheel arch of a trolley if the wheels are small.

The terrain can get rough at Glasto - the number of abandoned trolleys you see littering the site is mad.

Generally, the wheels can't handle the weight/ terrain and fall off.

If I had to design a trolley from scratch for Glasto, I'd go for 3 big pneumatic tyres.

👍

[Gilb]

I thought about trying to design an all-weather festival trolley some time ago.
The worst problem to overcome is always the mud. There are many varieties of mud to deal with that frequent Glastonbury attendees will be familiar with.

There's the liquid mud. Usually found after fresh downpours on well-trodden paths this is extremely sploshy and will throw up loads of mud-splatters that get in every nook and cranny of both machinery and humans. Not too bad for getting a trolley through but becomes a problem once it dries out if it's got into bearings or bum cracks.

Then there's the clingy mud. Not wet enough to cause a splosh, but soft enough to sink into a little and slow you right down. Tends to stick and accumulate. 

Next up is the deadly gripper mud. This is the next stage on from clingy. The gripper mud is a real killer. The mud is starting to dry out fast and takes on a clay-like strength. It is a living being. As wheels or wellies push into it, it is forced up and around the moving item, encapsulating it with the grip of a hungry bear. There are numerous sites around Glastonbury that bear testament to this. Graveyards of lonesome wellie-boots that have become trapped, their owners to scared to attempt to go back and retrieve their footwear for fear of themselves being sucked into the muddy mire for eternity. Trolley wheels fare just as bad. The grippy mud sucks onto the tyre and is dragged round to accumulate in mudguards, on axles, or between wheel and frame, quickly drying further and locking the wheel and preventing further motion. Many a poor soul with a trolley laden with crates of beer or cider has felt their world come crashing down at this point. The hardier trolly-man (or woman) will attempt to play it cool here with the defiant cry of 'Carry on, I'll catch you up', but ultimately the fight will soon drain from their mortal souls and they will end up in a crying heap, a spent husk.

So what to recommend?
I would say something heavy with tracks would be ideal but is simply not practical for your average festival-goer to transport. 
Therefore the next best thing would be some large-ish wheeled with non-pneumatic (solid) tyre. i.e. pram wheels are thin enough not to tempt grippy mud on to them and excess mud can be easily scraped from them. With these you'll require an extra strength axle and protected wheel-bearings so that there is less ingress from the liquid mud. Maybe an auto-scrape system that cleaves off any mud stuck to the wheels as they rotate.
A well-sprung suspension should also protect the axle/wheels from the bashing of a heavier load.
Your push-pull handle system is ideal and allows for a 2-man effort when in sticky situations.

I look forward to your final solution. For me I have already found the ultimate solution - rent a motorhome  

 

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

1 hour ago, oneeye said:

Prams are the way ahead.

This has been my festival trolley for over 10 years, still going strong. Spud pneumatic steerable tyres. Has never let me down, whatever the ground conditions. Best £9 I ever spent (ebay). Just need bundgy straps and away you go, steer with one hand, cider in the other 😎

I have previously looked at such an item, but there's no way they were around the £9 mark. You got a right bargain there oneeye. 

[bombfrog]

OK, so here goes...

Our first year in 2004 we bought a 2 wheeled shopping trolley and obviously it completely dies so the year after we bought one of the standard gardening trolleys with 4 pneumatic wheels and with a few spare parts it's lasted us 15 years, taken some very heavy tents, gazebos (before they were banned) and survived the mud years.

The closest we got to the death of the trolley was when the pin that links the handle to the front axel (the bit that it all twists around to steer the wheels) fell apart in deep mud but we were able to stick something else in to keep it altogether. That's the only really weak point we've ever found.

Here are the trolley's good points

• It's fairly light - Seems to be made of tubular metal and the sides are a mesh so couldn't really be much lighter/stronger without making it out of carbon fibre. This is important as when it's loaded up it can be heavy to drag from the car parks.
• Easy to take apart - The base with wheels easy fits in a car upside down and all the sides go in separately.
• The wheels - I've seen various suggestions here but in my experience the large diameter bycicle wheels suggested by some would just put more point pressure into the mud when laden up. As always, it's girth that's important, and they have to be pneumatic with a bog-standard bike pump to pump them up. In an ideal world there would be some sort of "run on flat" option here.
• Easy to maintain - Over the years it's had a few new pins to keep the sides on and a few new bolts. It's also had two new tyres. All of this is made very easy because all parts are standard.
• It's so strong - Apart from the previously mentioned bolt which links the front axel to the handle (which I now check every year before we leave) it's incredibly strong
• Comfortable handle - You're going to be pulling it at least a mile from the car park and it's going to be heavy - a soft foam handle is a necessity

 

But it could be better

• It's hard to pull/push =  with one hand on the handle I often end up pulling with both hands behind my back. When going uphill or through mud somebody had to push from behind and there's nothing to grip onto to do that. Often it involves pushing on a tent or box which might fall out. 
• The sides aren't high enough -  so tall things can potentially fall out. We've fashioned a canopy to put over the top of it made out of a bungee net and bungee ropes. These clip in 4 corners underneath the trolley and it's basically impossible for anything to fall out then. An "official part" made to fit would be good.
• Ground clearance - could be a bit higher, for mud years.

Also, I love your idea of turning it onto a chair if this is possible. I've had the same thought but I always figured we'd break it. It's strong but it does bounce/twist a bit if you put the full weight of a human sitting on it so I'm not sure if you'll succeed with this unless the underneath is fixed to the main body at the sides, not just in the middle.

Annoyingly, I don't think I have any photos of our own trolley, it's not something I think to take photos of.