Designing a bespoke festival trolley for Glastonbury

[Gilb]

1 hour ago, Andrew_Ntu said:

Glad you agree with the 2 handle system, always seems to be the case of not being sure where to grab when you're in a sticky one.

 

 

An alternative or in addition to a pull-handle would be a harness. Very useful for those uphill battles!

 

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

7 minutes ago, Gilb said:

 

a harness. Very useful for those uphill battles!

 

I know what you mean;

 

I suspect I'm in for it now, but we'll see.

[bombfrog]

5 minutes ago, Yoghurt on a Stick said:

I know what you mean;

 

I suspect I'm in for it now, but we'll see.

I never needed a harness to do that.

[Andrew_Ntu]

4 hours ago, hfuhruhurr said:

Your basic design looks fab. We have a garden trolley that's survived several Glastonburys and Drownloads - severe mud.

Our design points:

- Our current trolley folds inside out so wheels up and all dry in the car - brilliant. We re-pack the trolley, so it's empty in the car (also wouldn't be able to lift it and it wouldn't fit in the car).
- Tarp to go over the top that serves as a car protector too.
- Consider wire sides not canvass - let the water through if in rain, also have them double collapse so it folds smaller when in car.
- As said before, no mud guards, just clearance and decent pneumatic tyres. A spare would be fab. Clearance is key.
- Ability to disable it - we take the wheels off (or, at Glastonbury we put it in the lockup).
- Break is a fab idea but not essential - would rather it mud proof and simple that complicated with a break.
- Push and more importantly pull - have a harness so I can strap my mate to a yoke and whip him up the hill of death. Make it impossible for him to look behind so he can't see that I'm not pushing. Fit a seat on the back so I can ride up that hill.
- Straps way better than bungees - but keep lots of bungee hook points so that last thing can be strapped on 

Ours is like this:

Thank you! Thanks for the detailed break down, some good considerations here. Forgot about that with the breaks, will probably cause problems when its clogged up with mud, might not go down that route now

[Andrew_Ntu]

4 hours ago, jimmillen said:

Clearly that does come at the cost of manoeuvrability and ability to nudge it along bit by bit without having to pick up the handles every time - like when you're in a queue... I was contemplating a design with a small jockey wheel sitting underneath the front of the load bed that could be lowered for when you wanted it to stand by itself, or raised up for when you were pulling it any distance - like car trailers or caravans use.

 

Good point about queues, maybe even a bar that you could quickly set down with your foot to hold it upright?

 

4 hours ago, jimmillen said:

If using two big wheels, depending on how complicated you want to make the construction & how big the wheels would be, you could actually have the load bed lower than the wheel axles - this would help with stability.

 

Interesting, will look into this

4 hours ago, jimmillen said:

Personally I'd prefer a flat load bed with plenty of places to hook down straps and just tie everything on really solidly, rather than having sides.

 

Yeah i thought about this too, although i imagine some people aren't as smart about stacking as others so they might want sides....could make them collapsible so the options there. Definetly going to have lots of strap options. 

[Andrew_Ntu]

1 hour ago, Jakeyboi135 said:

Have the wheels outside of the frame rather than below it, much more stable, people like to stack high so have a low and wide axle, though not so low as to get stuck on bumps. Making it simple, pins that can be removed to de assemble for instance. Also keep the weight light as possible whilst maintaining tenstile strength, a lot of trolleys are either so weak they break within minutes or so bulky that once fully loaded the weight is a nightmare on the arms. Canvas is a great idea for the sides, I wonder how much you could use something like bamboo for the top frame, lighter than steel but still strong and inexpensive, and have the handles and arms bolted to the metal sub frame. Ratchet straps are the way forward 

I didn't think about having the wheels on the outside, i'll look into that. Bamboo would be a nice touch, wonder how it would hold up after a couple of years without needing to be treated though 

 

1 hour ago, Yoghurt on a Stick said:

Couldn't it just come with a separate plastic lightweight tarpaulin, which would cover the items inside, and wouldn't restrict anybody's ambitions on building their load high?

 

Yeah I suppose it could be proposed as an accessory item tailored to the trolley. 

 

44 minutes ago, bombfrog said:

That's why we use a bungee net. Doesn't keep anything dry but it does stretch over any load and keeps everything in place...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00VHO89DI?tag=duckduckgo-brave-uk-21&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1

This looks ideal

42 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

If you want to go down the canopy route and gain extra points for sustainability why not look at the option of using discarded tents from festivals. Already lightweight and waterproof they also come with poles too. 

I actually went to a shop yesterday that sells ex military supplies and grabbed some tents for £5 a piece to use for prototyping. That'd be a nice touch having it out of festival tents, could use them for the tarpulin or the canvas if i go down that route.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

46 minutes ago, bombfrog said:

I never needed a harness to do that.

I know what you mean - you smile, and the whole world smiles with you. Natural like. Ennit?

[Reckoner]

13 hours ago, Andrew_Ntu said:

Are you saying it's the mud guards which are creating problems as mud gets clogged up between them and the wheel? One of my friends had this same problem where it stopped spinning. In that case, do you think having a large clearance between the wheel and frame of the trolley be enough?

Sorry for the delay, and the thread has probably moved on as others have covered this ground,  but I’ll reply anyway.

From the ones I’ve observed on the Boulevard of broken trolleys, it’s always because mud gets stuck in a part of the trolley where the wheel spins, caking up and blocking the wheel rotation path, causing it to get stuck and stop spinning.

A mud guard or device that scrapes the mud away as the wheel turns would be great, but Glastonbury mud is a mythical beast and it will still find away in. You mostly want the mud to disperse as the wheel turns so a bigger clearance, whilst not compromising axle strength would seem to be the way to go. Mudflaps/guards are mostly to stop debris flying as a wheel turns. The cart is probably not going to be moving fast enough for this to be a main concern.

[hfuhruhurr]

On the mud caked wheel front - how about a "thing" that you can lower onto the wheels that will scrape them just for a couple of turns of the wheel - could double up as a brake if design permitted.

[K2SO]

Sounds like a cool idea mate.

We use my dad and granddad's old fishing trolleys (my granddad has been dead 11 years, so that shows you how long they can last!), and they always do us well. They are the collapsible metal ones that you can take the wheels off and attach them with a clip.

If you go for something like that, I would suggest trying to make some sort of thing to hold everything round the sides. At the moment, we use shrink wrap and bungie cords to hold everything in, though it's not very practical or environmentally friendly!

I'd also suggest looking into something to make it more comfortable for your hands. The metal bars can give your rubs, burns and blisters on your hands whilst dragging it around!

[GoonerRob]

Just taking the opportunity to show off my mates trolley again, which we will br bringing this year, worked wonderfully last year and even charged all our phones!

 

[Mark E. Spliff]

24 minutes ago, GoonerRob said:

Just taking the opportunity to show off my mates trolley again, which we will br bringing this year, worked wonderfully last year and even charged all our phones!

(The following suggestion is definitely a bit OTT, but the thread is about a Uni design project so I think it's allowed.)

Clearly, Rob's mate's powered version would have been the king of the trolleys last year.  However, I reckon it would struggle in mud.  Getting away after 2007 would have been a nightmare as the mud was frequently been deeper than those wheels are high - even on the main trackways.

Morph100 mentioned a possible solution earlier: make it into a tracked vehicle.  That would require some serious engineering: separating the drive to the left and right sides (so they could be independently braked or reversed for steering) but if you're not having to actually build the thing, then that doesn't matter.  An alternative to independent left/right drive would be simultaneously pulling both the middle track guide wheels to the left or right, which turns the straight tracks into a crescent shape which the vehicle follows.  If you do have to build a prototype, you could go with a bodge: just put a track onto a fixed drive-train, but have some arrangement whereby you can lift up the front of it (via a dolly wheel on a lever arm) to move it around before driving off in the new direction. 

Back in the real world: if I was trying to get a powered trolley through deep mud, I'd do what farmers do and try and give the tyres the biggest footprint possible.  That would involve very wide wheels of very large diameter with very low air pressure.  If you look at 'fat bikes' on YouTube, these follow this approach and are supposedly able to cope in sand and snow.

[Andrew_Ntu]

6 hours ago, hfuhruhurr said:

On the mud caked wheel front - how about a "thing" that you can lower onto the wheels that will scrape them just for a couple of turns of the wheel - could double up as a brake if design permitted.

Ah i see, this could work.

 

14 hours ago, Gregfc15 said:

A mud guard or device that scrapes the mud away as the wheel turns would be great, but Glastonbury mud is a mythical beast and it will still find away in. You mostly want the mud to disperse as the wheel turns so a bigger clearance, whilst not compromising axle strength would seem to be the way to go. Mudflaps/guards are mostly to stop debris flying as a wheel turns. The cart is probably not going to be moving fast enough for this to be a main concern.

Thanks for getting back, I get what you mean now. I've heard about self cleaning threads on tires, might look into those. Although i'm not sure if the wheel will be rotating fast enough to have much of an affect.

6 hours ago, K2SO said:

Sounds like a cool idea mate.

We use my dad and granddad's old fishing trolleys (my granddad has been dead 11 years, so that shows you how long they can last!), and they always do us well. They are the collapsible metal ones that you can take the wheels off and attach them with a clip.

If you go for something like that, I would suggest trying to make some sort of thing to hold everything round the sides. At the moment, we use shrink wrap and bungie cords to hold everything in, though it's not very practical or environmentally friendly!

Cheers mate, 

i've been looking into fishing trolleys actually, thought it was interesting how they are mainly in a barrow style and i haven't seen any four wheeled ones. They're also all push too.  How do you find yours holds up? How many tires do you have on yours and do you find there are balance issues? I had doubts about the stability of the wheelbarrow style but if it works fine for you then i might go down that route.

My dads got one too, was thinking of going back home to test it out. 

Regarding the sides, I've looked into having higher/adjustable lengths but i was worried how it might collapse. I've toyed with a few ideas, i'll add the sketch and some crude models i've done below. Although I was also thinking a lower base might be fine as long as it comes with tarpaulin?   

[Andrew_Ntu]

4 hours ago, GoonerRob said:

Just taking the opportunity to show off my mates trolley again, which we will br bringing this year, worked wonderfully last year and even charged all our phones!

 

Saw this a few weeks ago when i was researching for ideas, looks great mate but i think i'm going to avoid the electric route. Cool project though, how did the wheels hold up in the terrain?

 

[Andrew_Ntu]

3 hours ago, Mark E. Spliff said:

(The following suggestion is definitely a bit OTT, but the thread is about a Uni design project so I think it's allowed.)

Clearly, Rob's mate's powered version would have been the king of the trolleys last year.  However, I reckon it would struggle in mud.  Getting away after 2007 would have been a nightmare as the mud was frequently been deeper than those wheels are high - even on the main trackways.

Morph100 mentioned a possible solution earlier: make it into a tracked vehicle.  That would require some serious engineering: separating the drive to the left and right sides (so they could be independently braked or reversed for steering) but if you're not having to actually build the thing, then that doesn't matter.  An alternative to independent left/right drive would be simultaneously pulling both the middle track guide wheels to the left or right, which turns the straight tracks into a crescent shape which the vehicle follows.  If you do have to build a prototype, you could go with a bodge: just put a track onto a fixed drive-train, but have some arrangement whereby you can lift up the front of it (via a dolly wheel on a lever arm) to move it around before driving off in the new direction. 

Back in the real world: if I was trying to get a powered trolley through deep mud, I'd do what farmers do and try and give the tyres the biggest footprint possible.  That would involve very wide wheels of very large diameter with very low air pressure.  If you look at 'fat bikes' on YouTube, these follow this approach and are supposedly able to cope in sand and snow.

Think i'm going to avoid the electric route for simplicity sake, tracks would be nice also and i'll be sure to show i've explored it in developments but I don't think i'll gain much marks compared to the time put into sorting it out. You're right about the tractors, i'll check out those fat bikes too!

[Andrew_Ntu]

Played around with some designs today, what do you guys think?

 

Design 1

Played around with having the frames length expandable. I've kept the extended space as bars rather than a flat surface so heavy items such as beer crates can't be placed here, encouraging it to be placed in the middle on the flat base above the wheels, keeping it stable. The side panels will be able to be folded down incase the user wants to place items sideways across the base instead. 

 

Design 2

As another design, i've looked at having a customisable frame. For those that want to stack high they can set up the bars accordingly and straps can be attached freely. For those that might not want a side bar at all they also have the option to remove the bars.

 

 

Design 3

I've looked into a rickshaw design, although me and my tutors are unsure about the connotations, it would be pretty entertaining to annoy your mate pulling one of these along though.

  

 

Design 1 and 2 are my favourite and i'll be developing these further. I could likely combine the adaptable element of design 2 with design 1 if it proves viable.

Going to head down to the workshop tomorrow and over the next few days to experiment with some scale models to determine how many wheels to use.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Andrew_Ntu

[Mark E. Spliff]

16 minutes ago, Andrew_Ntu said:

Played around with some designs today, what do you guys think?

Just a couple of observations: If you're going with a 4-wheeler, then the front wheels will need to be steerable, and will need a differential mechanism.  Otherwise, they won't steer and/or will drag the tyres around corners.  If you go with two wheels, you avoid this.  Gilb's harness idea above is a good one.  If you're doing the heavy work with your arms, then you're at risk of damaging your lower back.  If you can transfer as much of the load as possible to your hips, then you take your lower back out of the equation.  That's the reason good quality rucksacks have huge padded waist-bands.

Design one is my favourite in terms of the load-carrying platform.  Forget the side-bars in design two - you can provide max strength/min weight side support with a length of rope wrapped around the vertical posts.  This would also act as a means to lock your sliding platform extensions around the load.  So if you bung design one onto the two-wheeled version of design three, with some way of securing rope in position, you'd be well on your way.  You'd then need to work out the optimal height of the platform in relation to the wheel axles.  Too high and you lose stability, too low and you lose ground clearance.  You could also get rid of the fixed rickshaw legs and replace them with something clever which retracts when not needed - to improve ground clearance.

Finally, if you're clever with design, you can minimise the material used in order to provide the required strength at minimal weight.  Lots of triangles, putting plywood/bamboo/metal under compression and steel cable under tension would work wonders.  If you're really clever you could come up with a design which can be folded for different uses - mini gazebos, benches etc - and for transport in the boot of a car or a bus.

This is one of those things that could conceivably be a big seller.  I was on this forum banging on about reflective festival tents long before Fresh and Black etc appeared on the market.  I'm not aware of anyone doing a festival-specific trolley that ticks anywhere near enough boxes.

[guypjfreak]

On 3/9/2020 at 10:57 AM, Splonk said:

I wombled one of these from Pylon Ground in 2019.

It's the perfect trolley - it cruises over rough terrain, has plenty of storage, and quality build so the wheels don't fall off.

Been taking one of these stripped down for over 10 years.. Never let me down.. 

[GoonerRob]

19 hours ago, Andrew_Ntu said:

Saw this a few weeks ago when i was researching for ideas, looks great mate but i think i'm going to avoid the electric route. Cool project though, how did the wheels hold up in the terrain?

 

They were great, but there wasnt a drop of rain all week! 

[Andrew_Ntu]

Thanks for the feedback Mark,

On 3/10/2020 at 7:56 PM, Mark E. Spliff said:

Forget the side-bars in design two - you can provide max strength/min weight side support with a length of rope wrapped around the vertical posts.  This would also act as a means to lock your sliding platform extensions around the load.

You make a great point here, some sort of flexible material rather than fixed bars across the post would work better as it wouldn't restrict the space but also keep it secure. Maybe some horizontal ratchet straps this time? 

Interesting point about the wheels too. I had a long chat in a local fishing shop yesterday and the owner praised the 2 wheeled barrow below. The trolley was suprisingly light and could be held upright by one finger. 

We decided that for my purpose three wheels would probably be best, giving the best of both worlds with mobility and stability.
I liked the bag feature as it acts as a compartment for weather and mud protection. I thought if this was made out of some sort of insulating material, it might be able to function as a cooler box too?

As for where it goes on the trolley, i've seen some fishing barrows have it below the frame, by the wheels. Although this will help with stability, it'll reduce ground clearance and like you and others have mentioned, I need to pay attention to ground clearance. 

 

 <----- The three wheel design i'm likely going with

[blutarsky]

My old man knocked this up:

 

Used a long chain and padlock to lock through wheels and over top to prevent theft. Heavy mind. 

Edited March 17, 2020 by blutarsky
embedded quote fail

[Andrew_Ntu]

Hey guys, hope everyones well

Sorry for the lack of updates, my university has now closed but the project is still underway as we're still due to graduate this year which is good. I won't have the facilities to manufacture and test the product unfortunately, so i'll have to rely on advice and recommendations to conclude what will work and what won't. This does give me a little bit more time to work on the design and research though.  

I've got three concepts here, would once again appreciate any of your feedback! The wheels are still undecided which is why they aren't sketched on, which i'll explain a little more down below.

Concept 1.....................................................................................

Concept 2..............................................................................................

Concept 3...........................................................................................

 

 

As for wheels.... I've been thinking about having two fixed back wheels and having the two front wheels on casters (a bit like this Buggy).

The wheels would be much larger, either foam or solid. Concerns are that the casters may get jammed with mud.... I can always test this out in the garden though. 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Andrew_Ntu

[Andrew_Ntu]

bump

[hfuhruhurr]

Concept 1 looks fun, I like the idea that you can sit on the frame while camping.

Avoid casters or any wheel that rotates - they will jam.

Shouldn't worry too much about time to unpack on arrival - that part is reasonably quick and everyone is happy anyway because they've arrived at the campsite at last!

[Andrew_Ntu]

Hi guys, theres four days left of the project and i've pretty much finalised everything. Huge thanks to everyone who helped with their advice and feedback along the way. I've got a draft of my presentation here, and i'm looking for feedback quotes from festival goers to put in on my final slide. You guys would be ideal so if you have any thoughts on the value of the design let me know! 

The youtube link below is the presentation, but for those that don't want to sit through it, i'll post just the presentation pictures itself below. 

Thanks!