news & politics:discussion

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

yeah, well this will have to be part of the conversation and debate. We have this huge health service that already costs more than anything else, and we have an aging population, and terrible inequality. Do we want to keep the NHS as is, or move to a different system? If keeping as is, free at point of delivery, then it is obviously going to need more funds on top of the extra funds already being thrown at it. It's a huge problem, no quick fixes, no easy answers...I certainly don't have any.

Without a shadow of a doubt keep the NHS as a free at point of use public health service but yeah reform of some kind is clearly needed for both the service and social care too.

But I think my point (explained poorly tbf) was about taxes as a whole being the highest they’ve been in ages yet public services still aren’t being properly funded.

[mattiloy]

2 hours ago, Ozanne said:

The thing is though our taxes are the highest they’ve been for about a century and the Tories keep claiming they bring them down eventually. So if they need to go up further when will they stop going up? It comes down to faith in the government using our taxes wisely which I don’t think they do. I’m saying that as someone that supports higher taxes for public services. 

As I see it there are two major differences between the uk and countries that have tax systems that support a functioning welfare state.

One is that dividend and capital gains tax is much lower in the uk.

The second is that the UK’s political system has weakened democracy to the point that its been dominated by right wing extremists since Thatcher. The UK’s public sector has been asset stripped and the capital account squandered ever since. Take Gove’s free schools as an example - as a project it cost a bomb - and outcomes no better than state schools. Wrong priorities, wasteful spending, back to square one. Ditto New Labour’s PPI nonsense.

 

The solution is proportional representation to loosen the neo classical stranglehold on the political agenda of governments and to build broader consensus for that kind of sweeping reforms and the spaffing of dough that goes with it - and then time. Probably decades. Hopefully the breakup of the uk too.

Edited January 3, 2023 by mattiloy

[steviewevie]

20 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

As I see it there are two major differences between the uk and countries that have tax systems that support a functioning welfare state.

One is that dividend and capital gains tax is much lower in the uk.

The second is that the UK’s political system has weakened democracy to the point that its been dominated by right wing extremists since Thatcher. The UK’s public sector has been asset stripped and the capital account squandered ever since. Take Gove’s free schools as an example - as a project it cost a bomb - and outcomes no better than state schools. Wrong priorities, wasteful spending, back to square one. Ditto New Labour’s PPI nonsense.

 

The solution is proportional representation to loosen the neo classical stranglehold on the political agenda of governments and to build broader consensus for that kind of sweeping reforms and the spaffing of dough that goes with it - and then time. Probably decades. Hopefully the breakup of the uk too.

Yes, I was just going to mention the neo classical stranglehold.

[Neil]

1 hour ago, Ozanne said:

Without a shadow of a doubt keep the NHS as a free at point of use public health service but yeah reform of some kind is clearly needed for both the service and social care too.

reform isn't really needed, we know how to do the poorly performing parts well-already. doesn't need to be a whole new national care service we just need the old service restored.  creating something new will be why we have nothing.

 

1 hour ago, Ozanne said:

But I think my point (explained poorly tbf) was about taxes as a whole being the highest they’ve been in ages yet public services still aren’t being properly funded.

 

[Neil]

i've no interest in Harry's book, but i think there should be an award for whoever came up with the title, 'spare'.

[pink_triangle]

6 hours ago, steviewevie said:

uncomfortable truth is if it is going to survive it is going to need more funds from tax, same with social care that is part of the problem. On top of that it needs to be better organised/managed otherwise it will be a lot of wasted money.  This is obvious of course, but the tax/spend thing is the issue, how much, how far...and what "reforms" to go along with it...and will likely be what much of the next election is fought over.

 

Social care needs to be nationalised, I can’t see how it can work in the private sector who will not pay the staff enough to retain them.

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, Barry Fish said:

I do think the NHS has over stretched itself.  If you think about when it was formed and the services it offered compared to today, its vastly increased.  The NHS is doing a lot of things now which you have to question if it should.

IVF for example....   The public shouldn't be paying for this.

So I do believe reform is required.  I do think there are a lot of services that should be paid for by the patient.  There seems to be very little limit to the services the NHS will fund.  

While you can argue about whether the NHS should supply IVF, ultimately this isn’t going to make a huge difference one way or the other. The big challenge is the aging population and the costs that are associated with this. There are also ethical questions in terms of should we be extending life at all cost, this also comes at a cost. There are people assessing whether the life expectancy and quality of life from treatments is good expenditure, I wouldn’t want to make these decisions.

[clarkete]

There are plenty of incorrect assumptions being made about how much we spend on health care compared to other countries and what we get as a result.

There's some good data here...

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/myth-1-we-already-spend-too-much-on-health-and-our-outcomes-are-poor

[Neil]

2 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

I do think the NHS has over stretched itself.  If you think about when it was formed and the services it offered compared to today, its vastly increased.  The NHS is doing a lot of things now which you have to question if it should.

IVF for example....   The public shouldn't be paying for this.

So I do believe reform is required.  I do think there are a lot of services that should be paid for by the patient.  There seems to be very little limit to the services the NHS will fund.  

Are you writing the list of things it won't treat, and do people have a responsibility to try to stay healthy. 

[clarkete]

14 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

No I am not going to supply a list and if people live a little less healthy maybe the will die sooner and not become costly pensioners. 

 

[steviewevie]

5 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

Social care needs to be nationalised, I can’t see how it can work in the private sector who will not pay the staff enough to retain them.

isn't that currently the same in the public sector?

 

4 hours ago, clarkete said:

 

he had the right idea, just poorly applied...like communism and brexit etc.

[steviewevie]

[Guest]

I’ve said this all along, they’ll always blame everyone else but in reality it’s the Tories fault. But don’t worry everyone Sunak wants pupils to continue doing Maths!

[pink_triangle]

2 hours ago, steviewevie said:

isn't that currently the same in the public sector?

I think we need wages at an acceptable level to retain people in social care. To do that we need to pay them a reasonable wage. At present someone working in social care is paid significantly less than someone in health doing a similar role.

[steviewevie]

 

[Rufus Gwertigan]

1 hour ago, Ozanne said:

 But don’t worry everyone Sunak wants pupils to continue doing Maths!

Well the NHS is going to need people to count how many beds they need.

[Neil]

Gonna need to count how many new hospitals Boris delivered. 

[clarkete]

10 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

Over my head that one lol

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/avengers-infinity-war-what-is-thanos-plan-1101381/

[steviewevie]

 

[steviewevie]

 

[steviewevie]

Sunak doing his new year vision speech this afternoon...and Starmer doing his tomorrow.

Apparently.

[steviewevie]

Reform ruling out a pact with Tories like last time...

[gary1979666]

2 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

Probably easier to just say what you are thinking - I still dont get it lol

Big ole Thanos thought that killing half the population of the universe would sort everything out. (Needed 6 special gems to do this, but the pesky Avengers try to stop him - decent set of films if you have time / inclanation)

[stuie]

11 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Sunak doing his new year vision speech this afternoon...and Starmer doing his tomorrow.

Apparently.

He's such a bad speaker.  It's like watching Will from the Inbetweeners. 

[steviewevie]

Rishi says will announce measures on strikes soon...🍿

He talks like he's living in an old disney film. Weird.