news & politics:discussion

[kaosmark2]

9 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Where does the 5 million come from?

12% of the UK are queer. Most queer voters vote Labour.

[kaosmark2]

7 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Ok. So Labour's new policy is an attempt at a compromise. It will lose some votes, but will gain some votes.

No, it's pandering to bigots, bullies and hate-speakers. It's not a compromise.

For the last 2 years Starmer has been attempting to sit on the fence - which is sh*tty but understandable - he has now taken a side. 

Jewish people rejected Labour because of Corbyn backing anti-semites. Queer people are going to reject Labour now.

[pink_triangle]

11 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

12% of the UK are queer. Most queer voters vote Labour.

Surely it’s a bit of a generalisation that they will all stop voting labour. I don’t doubt some will, I think many won’t.

[fraybentos1]

I'm not convinced that that many gay people are extremely pro trans although obv some are. This is based on a sample size of one lesbian I used to work with being openly anti-trans pro-womens only spaces, whatever you wanna call it.

[kaosmark2]

1 minute ago, fraybentos1 said:

I'm not convinced that that many gay people are extremely pro trans although obv some are. This is based on a sample size of one lesbian I used to work with being openly anti-trans pro-womens only spaces, whatever you wanna call it.

Only 3% of queer people would use the acronym that excludes Trans.

[steviewevie]

22 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

No, it's pandering to bigots, bullies and hate-speakers. It's not a compromise.

For the last 2 years Starmer has been attempting to sit on the fence - which is sh*tty but understandable - he has now taken a side. 

Jewish people rejected Labour because of Corbyn backing anti-semites. Queer people are going to reject Labour now.

No, it's an attempt at a compromise...which has to be found. There are a lot of women out there who are very uncomfortable with the whole unchecked self id thing, and they aren't all bigots or whatever but have genuine concerns. So, Labour's position is to change the medical diagnosis, streamline it so less traumatic, but still have something. 

And also, not all queer people will reject Labour, same as not all jewish people rejected Labour. Stop making sweeping statements based on how you feel, not everyone feels the same. 

[steviewevie]

I was critical of Corbyn because I thought Labour had a problem with antisemitism which wasn't properly dealt with, but I did vote Labour in 2019 and think Labour should have allowed Corbyn back in, does that make me an antisemite? 

And with this I understand that a compromise needs to be found on an evolving and deeply divisive issue, and one that may not be important for many in the country, but at same time is huge for some. Does that make me a transphobe?

Sometimes you have to take the heat out of it and try a find a way though, otherwise we're just going to end up polarised on everything like in the US. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

Starmer's thrown away close to 5 million votes with his stance on LGBTQ+ rights. He's not that savvy. It's the same abandonment as Corbyn's Labour of the Jewish vote.

Even if you don't give a sh*t about the principles of the issue, it's stupid.

That’s completely made up. Labour hasn’t lost all of that number and you don’t speak for all of them.

Labour have tried to formulate a position that will appeal to both sides whilst trying to win an election. 

Making stuff up doesn’t help anyone. 

[kaosmark2]

8 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

No, it's an attempt at a compromise...which has to be found. There are a lot of women out there who are very uncomfortable with the whole unchecked self id thing, and they aren't all bigots or whatever but have genuine concerns. So, Labour's position is to change the medical diagnosis, streamline it so less traumatic, but still have something. 

And also, not all queer people will reject Labour, same as not all jewish people rejected Labour. Stop making sweeping statements based on how you feel, not everyone feels the same. 

"Unchecked self-ID" would still be a longer process than someone would bother with just to be predatory. Men get away with being predatory all the time anyway. Getting a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria is the process of finding a GP who believes you. Getting a full GRC is a 4yr+ process.

Did you know that there are people who cross the street when they see black people? Is that "genuine concerns" or bigotry? I'd say that's bigotry, probably fuelled by media panic and whipped up right-wing hatred.

No, not all Jewish people rejected Labour, but a huge amount did, and it was considered a systemic problem and an abandonment of a community who had long-relied on Labour. That comparison is apt and remains.

[steviewevie]

4 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

"Unchecked self-ID" would still be a longer process than someone would bother with just to be predatory. Men get away with being predatory all the time anyway. Getting a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria is the process of finding a GP who believes you. Getting a full GRC is a 4yr+ process.

Did you know that there are people who cross the street when they see black people? Is that "genuine concerns" or bigotry? I'd say that's bigotry, probably fuelled by media panic and whipped up right-wing hatred.

No, not all Jewish people rejected Labour, but a huge amount did, and it was considered a systemic problem and an abandonment of a community who had long-relied on Labour. That comparison is apt and remains.

Yes, the problem is men, no doubt. That doesn't negate the worry that many women have about unchecked self id. Labour's is an attempt to still have the diagnosis, but make less bureaucratic, traumatic and quicker. It is not to keep it as it is.

Anyway, you seem to be a zero tolerance type and I can't be arsed to get into an argument about something that doesn't really bother me that much but obviously is very important to you. Don't vote labour if it's such a big problem and if tories get in again they're all just the same anyway etc etc forever amen.

[pink_triangle]

33 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

That’s completely made up. Labour hasn’t lost all of that number and you don’t speak for all of them.

Labour have tried to formulate a position that will appeal to both sides whilst trying to win an election. 

Making stuff up doesn’t help anyone. 

I tried to see if there was polling from previous elections, but couldn’t find anything. My guess is the labour/Tory split is closer than people think, but wouldn’t have a clue if I’m correct. I am sure it will put some off, some will be disappointed and still vote labour, some won’t care.

[fraybentos1]

1 hour ago, kaosmark2 said:

Only 3% of queer people would use the acronym that excludes Trans.

The woman I worked with must have been a 3 perecenter! 

[lazyred]

1 hour ago, kaosmark2 said:

12% of the UK are queer. Most queer voters vote Labour.

Whats the source for 12%?

2021 census https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/2021-census-what-do-we-know-about-the-lgbt-population/

has 3.2% LGB+ with 7.5% not saying and 0.5% trans with 6% not answering.

Anecdote not data but the first gay people I knew were all tories in the time of Section 28.

[lost]

1 hour ago, lazyred said:

Whats the source for 12%?

You can be straight and queer nowadays. All you need to do is invent a sexual identity for yourself and suddenly your not a boring straight person your a minority and edgy.

As far as I can tell they are the same kids who would of been the emo's in the 2000's or goths in the 1980's.

[Neil]

6 hours ago, Ozanne said:

Starmer’s very savvy so PR won’t be the next manifesto but depending on the size of the majority it could be in the next one. If it looks like Labour need the support of Green/LD votes at the end of their 1st or 2nd term then they’ll put PR into that manifesto so they can get those votes.

will be difficult to introduce pr without a referendum - cameron set a baseline with the av ref.

[steviewevie]

7 hours ago, Neil said:

will be difficult to introduce pr without a referendum - cameron set a baseline with the av ref.

they could make it as part of their manifesto and fight an election on it? Anyway, if Labour win a big majority no way are they going to change the electoral system that helped them get that majority...if a small majority or hung parliament then it definitely has more of a chance. 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Neil said:

will be difficult to introduce pr without a referendum - cameron set a baseline with the av ref.

I don’t think so, if it’s in a manifesto and they win an election then that’s the mandate that they need. 

[Neil]

3 hours ago, Ozanne said:

I don’t think so, if it’s in a manifesto and they win an election then that’s the mandate that they need. 

they can try doing that it'll be thought of as gerrymandering by the public.

i just came to post that the guardian says  tories are after Bristol's low traffic neighbourhoods, its close to me but not somewhere i drive thru regularly - seems a good idea to me. 🙂 

[Crazyfool01]

Maybe hints of a start to some kind of peace in Ukraine ..... Putin getting his demands in , possibly because he sees them struggling now 

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, Neil said:

they can try doing that it'll be thought of as gerrymandering by the public.

i just came to post that the guardian says  tories are after Bristol's low traffic neighbourhoods, its close to me but not somewhere i drive thru regularly - seems a good idea to me. 🙂 

I don’t think it would be thought of like that, the media/Tories might try to claim that though!

[Rufus Gwertigan]

3 hours ago, Neil said:

they can try doing that it'll be thought of as gerrymandering by the public.

i just came to post that the guardian says  tories are after Bristol's low traffic neighbourhoods, its close to me but not somewhere i drive thru regularly - seems a good idea to me. 🙂 

Sunak is after LTN's in general now. I don't understand people wanting areas with no or low traffic. Are people that tied to a car? When the kids where at primary the school was literally a hundred yards away yet even with a crossing guard we didn't feel safe letting them go on their own. Reverse that to the 70s and at 6 I would walk with my 9 year old sister the mile and a half to school and across a busy road with a crossing guard. I miss seeing kids playing in the street due to traffic and parking.

My family never owned a car. I am 55 and can't drive yet somehow managed to bring 5 kids up without one.

[steviewevie]

1 hour ago, Rufus Gwertigan said:

Sunak is after LTN's in general now. I don't understand people wanting areas with no or low traffic. Are people that tied to a car? When the kids where at primary the school was literally a hundred yards away yet even with a crossing guard we didn't feel safe letting them go on their own. Reverse that to the 70s and at 6 I would walk with my 9 year old sister the mile and a half to school and across a busy road with a crossing guard. I miss seeing kids playing in the street due to traffic and parking.

My family never owned a car. I am 55 and can't drive yet somehow managed to bring 5 kids up without one.

yeah..definitely agree with this, had similar with my kid's school where parents drove what would have been a 5-10 minute walk. Going to be hard to get people to drive less and fly less and eat less meat and turn down the heating, but needs doing.

[Ryan1984]

 

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, Ryan1984 said:

 

petrolheads of the world unite.

Tories definitely feel this could help them after uxbridge.

They might be right to. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by steviewevie

[Guest]

Sunak’s full of great ideas.