news & politics:discussion

[fraybentos1]

5 minutes ago, Neil said:

its not just the proponents of pr that would try to game the system to get their preferred outcome, the other side will attempt to do that too, with unpredictable outcomes(pr is not the guaranteed win some think it is).

it's a win for democracy and that's the only thing that matters. It shouldn't be viewed and wouldn't be a 'lock the tories out forever' type thing. 

[Neil]

1 minute ago, Crazyfool01 said:

there would be some extreme politics no doubt . isn't perfect but maybe wed get better outcomes and more green mps for starters as that becomes a huge feature of the future 

i wasn't referring to extreme politics tho it'll be in the mix too. i'm referencing that (based on repetitions) people are generally happy with tory govts, so that voters will attempt  to get the same outcome under a different voting system. its not the voting system that creates the outcome, but instead, how voters cast their votes to try to get their preferred outcome.

[steviewevie]

9 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

there would be some extreme politics no doubt . isn't perfect but maybe wed get better outcomes and more green mps for starters as that becomes a huge feature of the future 

Might get more people interested in politics and voting I guess, do people vote more in countries with PR? Not sure we would get more lefty governments, probably be coalitions similar to Tory and labour. Also an issue with PR is possible messy outcomes like in Spain...

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

because its relevant to the discussion ..... if we had PR then votes would likely go elsewhere other than to the 2 main parties which matiloy talks about as they become similar 

The 2 main parties aren’t similar but anyway I do support PR.

[Crazyfool01]

2 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

The 2 main parties aren’t similar but anyway I do support PR.

Ok I’ll reword that … they’ve become more similar 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Crazyfool01 said:

Ok I’ll reword that … they’ve become more similar 

Not really, the Tories have moved more towards the right and Labour into the centre left. Their policies aren’t really similar at all. 

[fraybentos1]

1 minute ago, Ozanne said:

Not really, the Tories have moved more towards the right and Labour into the centre left. Their policies aren’t really similar at all. 

it's firmly in the centre, not much left about it atm

[Neil]

trumps  complaining that his detractors want to interfere with the election, cos trump would never do that.

[steviewevie]

[steviewevie]

That pic is going to be all over Trump's campaign material..

[steviewevie]

7 hours ago, Ozanne said:

Not really, the Tories have moved more towards the right and Labour into the centre left. Their policies aren’t really similar at all. 

Not much difference in economic policy. Green stuff a divide is opening up, Labour have been watering their net zero stuff down a bit, but Tories seem to be moving to the right, I guess because they want a difference.  At moment Labour feel they can just win on cost of living Tories being incompetent, whether that remains the same as get closer to the election we'll have to see.

[Nobody Interesting]

In Germany the Green party vote grew slowly over tne years and more people voted for them as they saw others do the same.

At the last election they got 15% of the vote and are now sharing power.

What I get fed up of is the 'wasted vote' excuse for only voting red or blue and in the next breath the complaint that nothing ever chnges.

Well to get change you actually have to be willing to vote for it. It might take time but if all the UK does is return red or blue time after time then nothing will ever change.................................. and surely people can see that what has been for most of our, if not all of our, lives needs to change for things to really get better?

Want change - then vote for it and be patient. It may not happen any time soon but eventually is better than never.

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, Nobody Interesting said:

In Germany the Green party vote grew slowly over tne years and more people voted for them as they saw others do the same.

At the last election they got 15% of the vote and are now sharing power.

What I get fed up of is the 'wasted vote' excuse for only voting red or blue and in the next breath the complaint that nothing ever chnges.

Well to get change you actually have to be willing to vote for it. It might take time but if all the UK does is return red or blue time after time then nothing will ever change.................................. and surely people can see that what has been for most of our, if not all of our, lives needs to change for things to really get better?

Want change - then vote for it and be patient. It may not happen any time soon but eventually is better than never.

Hard for there to be any more than 2 main parties with fptp, and hard for any small party to break through to that two.

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Not much difference in economic policy. Green stuff a divide is opening up, Labour have been watering their net zero stuff down a bit, but Tories seem to be moving to the right, I guess because they want a difference.  At moment Labour feel they can just win on cost of living Tories being incompetent, whether that remains the same as get closer to the election we'll have to see.

To be fair we don’t know enough about Labour’s economic policy to say there’s not much difference and Labour haven’t been watering down Net Zero. It’s a lazy take to claim they are similar to each other, just look at their policies to see that isn’t true. 

[Nobody Interesting]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

Hard for there to be any more than 2 main parties with fptp, and hard for any small party to break through to that two.

That sort of backs up my point - not saying you are but it just sounds defeatist, what's the point cos it will make no difference.

If people think the way things have been run since, say, 1980 is great then carry on with red or blue................. but I know very few people who think things are great or have been great for that long. They are all fed up of the same old same old.............. but they then vote for the same old same old and round in circles we go.

Labour will win the next election. They will try and change things but without money that will be very hard. So 2029/2030 we head into an election which might well end up being Starmer vs Johnson and if Blue wins, more of the same we have had recently, if red wins, more slow not real change as Labour have to make sure they cannot be accused of being crap with money.

So come 2035 - nothing will have changed.

[Nobody Interesting]

1 hour ago, Ozanne said:

To be fair we don’t know enough about Labour’s economic policy to say there’s not much difference and Labour haven’t been watering down Net Zero. It’s a lazy take to claim they are similar to each other, just look at their policies to see that isn’t true. 

The core policies are no different.

Growth to pay for investment
Tax cuts when they can be afforded
Reform of the NHS
'Green Industrial Revolution' - without any idea of what that actually is.

Labour will be better than the Conservatives for the majority of people but not that different in reality. Those that have will soon take away if they feel threatened and so the two colour merry go round will carry on.

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, Nobody Interesting said:

That sort of backs up my point - not saying you are but it just sounds defeatist, what's the point cos it will make no difference.

If people think the way things have been run since, say, 1980 is great then carry on with red or blue................. but I know very few people who think things are great or have been great for that long. They are all fed up of the same old same old.............. but they then vote for the same old same old and round in circles we go.

Labour will win the next election. They will try and change things but without money that will be very hard. So 2029/2030 we head into an election which might well end up being Starmer vs Johnson and if Blue wins, more of the same we have had recently, if red wins, more slow not real change as Labour have to make sure they cannot be accused of being crap with money.

So come 2035 - nothing will have changed.

ok...but people have different views...and that view could be represented by different parties like Lib Dem, Green, Ukip or Reform...and they get no where. Labour and Conservatives are coalitions, they cover a broad church...it's why in Labour you have Blair and Corbyn (well, used to), who should not really belong in the same political party. Your example of Greens in Germany is precisely because they have a more proportional voting system (I think).

[Neil]

Good to see MPs perks being doubled, I couldn't think of a more deserving cause for public money.

When I'm king the powerful Will only be able to give themselves more if the same is given to the public 

[steviewevie]

 

[squirrelarmy]

19 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

 

That’s Scotlands bid for independence doomed then. 

[pink_triangle]

4 hours ago, Nobody Interesting said:

In Germany the Green party vote grew slowly over tne years and more people voted for them as they saw others do the same.

At the last election they got 15% of the vote and are now sharing power.

What I get fed up of is the 'wasted vote' excuse for only voting red or blue and in the next breath the complaint that nothing ever chnges.

Well to get change you actually have to be willing to vote for it. It might take time but if all the UK does is return red or blue time after time then nothing will ever change.................................. and surely people can see that what has been for most of our, if not all of our, lives needs to change for things to really get better?

Want change - then vote for it and be patient. It may not happen any time soon but eventually is better than never.

In reality it depends where you live , the vast majority of the country can vote green if they choose without potentially altering the result either way. If you live in a marginal seat you risk increasing the chances of the party you most dislike by voting the one you most like. Most can’t risk thinking long term when so much short term fixes are needed. 
 

If your left and support green issues the best option is to get involved with labour and push for PR.

[Nobody Interesting]

4 hours ago, steviewevie said:

ok...but people have different views...and that view could be represented by different parties like Lib Dem, Green, Ukip or Reform...and they get no where. Labour and Conservatives are coalitions, they cover a broad church...it's why in Labour you have Blair and Corbyn (well, used to), who should not really belong in the same political party. Your example of Greens in Germany is precisely because they have a more proportional voting system (I think).

Half of the Bundestag is made up of candidates from the country’s 299 constituencies.

The vote for those candidates resembles a "first-past-the-post" system, where the person with the most votes wins outright. Each constituency thus sends one winner to the Bundestag.

[Nobody Interesting]

22 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

In reality it depends where you live , the vast majority of the country can vote green if they choose without potentially altering the result either way. If you live in a marginal seat you risk increasing the chances of the party you most dislike by voting the one you most like. Most can’t risk thinking long term when so much short term fixes are needed. 
 

If your left and support green issues the best option is to get involved with labour and push for PR.

Labour conference voted for PR - then scrapped the idea cos they can see them winning in FPTP.

Until a party gets elected in a coalition then FPTP is what we are stuck with.

If I support Green and vote Labour then I do not get what I want so I might as well vote Green and hop my vote makes others change too.

Otherwise we are stuck in the same wheel forever and nothing will ever change.

[Nobody Interesting]

4 hours ago, Neil said:

Good to see MPs perks being doubled, I couldn't think of a more deserving cause for public money.

When I'm king the powerful Will only be able to give themselves more if the same is given to the public 

Utterly f**king disgusting. Not you as King, the other bit

[squirrelarmy]

4 hours ago, Neil said:

When I'm king the powerful Will only be able to give themselves more if the same is given to the public 

You need to have generations of outrageous wealth and inbreeding before you can consider yourself royalty.