news & politics:discussion

[lost]

1 minute ago, Skip997 said:

@lost is talking about balancing the grid in order to keep it at the right Alternating current frequency. This is done by switching on and off the available generation types, e.g. wind/solar/gas/nuclear according to demand.

An extreme example is the use of the Dinorwig (sp) pumped storage facility in Wales, which kicks in during times of extreme demand, e.g. when everyone makes a cuppa during the adverts in the middle of Coronation Street.

Nuclear and gas are used a base load power plants - The power from these plants is used to cater the base demand of the grid. Renewable generation depends on the weather (except some hydro, e.g. tidal), it will be used in preference when available. The advantage of gas is that it can be rapidly switched on or off depending on demand.

Yep and as a bigger proportion of energy generation becomes renewable it will be more expensive to balance the grid.

You can see the way the market is going at the moment I get 10p kwh to charge my Tesla between 1am and 3am as its now getting more expensive to balance they might as well nearly give the energy away to increase demand during quiet times. Equally as you say I can see variable pricing coming at the other end so it may cost say a tenner to boil your kettle during corrie in future.

[Nobody Interesting]

Just now, Ozanne said:

They would have to pay VAT under those Labour plans.

On fees, on profits.................... on what exactly and honest question................... unless you wrote the policy change how do you know so much so fast after one 'exclusive' leak?

[Nobody Interesting]

1 minute ago, lost said:

Yep and as a bigger proportion of energy generation becomes renewable it will be more expensive to balance the grid.

You can see the way the market is going at the moment I get 10p kwh to charge my Tesla between 1am and 3am as its now getting more expensive to balance they might as well nearly give the energy away to increase demand during quiet times. Equally as you say I can see variable pricing coming at the other end so it may cost say a tenner to boil your kettle during corrie in future.

and maybe they could increase the price of the teabags in supermarkets at certain times of day....................... except that is a daft idea so they never would.................. and would never actually be allowed.

Power should not be in profit making hands, nor should water

[Skip997]

1 minute ago, Nobody Interesting said:

Power should not be in profit making hands, nor should water

Totally agree

I'll add public transport to that and maybe even banks

[lost]

1 minute ago, Nobody Interesting said:

and maybe they could increase the price of the teabags in supermarkets at certain times of day....................... except that is a daft idea so they never would.................. and would never actually be allowed.

Power should not be in profit making hands, nor should water

National grid paper is here:

https://www.nationalgrideso.com/document/283101/download

look at the consumer transformation section:

Quote

The system will have higher peak electricity demands managed with flexible technologies including energy storage, Demand Side Response (DSR) and smart energy management.

"Demand Side Response" that is  balancing the grid from the demand side rather than the supply side.

[steviewevie]

Share it, Store it, Shift it.

[steviewevie]

See it, Say it, Sorted.

[steviewevie]

Hands, Face, Space.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Nobody Interesting said:

On fees, on profits.................... on what exactly and honest question................... unless you wrote the policy change how do you know so much so fast after one 'exclusive' leak?

I don't know the answer to the first question. I've read about it in the last few minutes and it's not that deep a topic it seems.

I've just seen this as well from Sam Freedman

Edit - The VAT would be charged on fees as per the headline of that article.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Ozanne

[pink_triangle]

 

8 hours ago, Crazyfool01 said:

The gb news defenders will be back soon demanding freedom of speech … ah sh*t the Chanel accidentally got deleted in work 

Those on the left having a meltdown about him on social media are just giving him the attention he craves. People like Fox don’t mind being hated, what they hate is being ignored.

[Neil]

1 hour ago, Nobody Interesting said:

Why is decoupling green electricity prices from gas prices never talked about?

 

because it can't be done, windfarm licences come with a guaranteed price, a price calculated against the costs of alternative electric generation (from gas, oil, etc).

 

1 hour ago, Nobody Interesting said:

If it was done electric prices would fall by up to 80% (not inc the standing charge).

Why is it not done? Cos profits for business would be slashed and thus GDP would fall.

Clean, green energy is easy and very very cheap.................. but the people seem to be denied that benefit.

its cheap but has to be incentivised.

[Neil]

1 minute ago, Neil said:

 

because it can't be done, windfarm licences come with a guaranteed price, a price calculated against the costs of alternative electric generation (from gas, oil, etc).

 

its cheap but has to be incentivised.

even the green's biggest supporter had to be incentivised with tax fiddles.

[steviewevie]

you hippies should be watching Ch4 news.

[lost]

More here on balancing costs:

https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/electric-power/012122-uk-power-system-balancing-costs-rise-48-in-2021-as-bm-prices-rocket

Quote

UK power system balancing costs rose 48% year on year in 2021 to GBP2.65 billion ($3.59 billion) after balancing mechanism prices rocketed in the final quarter, data from National Grid Electricity System Operator showed Jan. 21.

National Grid ESO takes a variety of actions to balance electricity supply and demand close to real time. The growth in intermittent wind, closure of dispatchable coal and hike in market prices are driving the cost of these actions up.

 

[Neil]

i bought a posh coffee today from the cafe at the hospital (not the sort of thing i do often), and i noticed the price £3.80 - didn't realise they cost so much).

[steviewevie]

If I was to choose any of the republican candidates I think it would be Nikki Haley. None of them stand a chance of course, unless they can really lock him up.

[Nobody Interesting]

13 hours ago, lost said:

National grid paper is here:

https://www.nationalgrideso.com/document/283101/download

look at the consumer transformation section:

"Demand Side Response" that is  balancing the grid from the demand side rather than the supply side.

Which is pretty much what the link I shared said - and all that is nearly sorted and by 2025 will no longer be any problem....

and if green electricity blows things up if the grid does not control the Hz then how do houses with solar on the roof not go bang all the time?

I get what all the links say - but I know it is not the major problem that stops any price being changed............... if someone wants to.

[Nobody Interesting]

13 hours ago, Ozanne said:

I don't know the answer to the first question. I've read about it in the last few minutes and it's not that deep a topic it seems.

I've just seen this as well from Sam Freedman

Edit - The VAT would be charged on fees as per the headline of that article.

Thanks - but prior to that you admit you did not know fees or VAT and yet you were stating with no doubt that what you said was right............... or maybe it is just how you word things with utter certainty that makes readers think that.

 

Anyway, the damage of  a uturn, even partial, is done and the media and Tories will use it against them even if it is not really a uturn much at all.

[Nobody Interesting]

If you read just one thing today................... make it this

https://stateofnature.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/TP25999-State-of-Nature-main-report_2023_FULL-DOC-v12.pdf

 

The UK, already the most nature depleted country in most of the world is at breaking point.....................

In just 10 years 6.7% of all species gone...................... at that rate there will be nothing left in 123 years.

[fred quimby]

Thanks for the replies on renewables, will have a read. 

Still feel we could unlink the pricing on open markets from the gas price, but will look some more

[gary1979666]

30 minutes ago, Nobody Interesting said:

Thanks - but prior to that you admit you did not know fees or VAT and yet you were stating with no doubt that what you said was right............... or maybe it is just how you word things with utter certainty that makes readers think that.

 

Anyway, the damage of  a uturn, even partial, is done and the media and Tories will use it against them even if it is not really a uturn much at all.

It's an odd one for me; as it's the parents who will be paying more.  The schools themselves will get the same money per pupil; they just have to pay the extra 20% of fees to the govt.

I'd imagine that there are a lot of the parents out there who can only just afford the fees.  My folks struggled to send me to private school 30 years ago, when the fees were much, much less (and in the North East).  Now, I can't afford the fees for my son, not even close.  So it's those at the bottom end of private school, who'll no longer be able to afford it (average cost is £17k/yr - so will increase to over £20k. Those kids will end up coming back into the state sector for education, while the super rich grab the extra grand a term out of their spare change.

Not sure it's that much of a vote winner; those who support it, will likely already vote labour.  

[Nobody Interesting]

26 minutes ago, fred quimby said:

Thanks for the replies on renewables, will have a read. 

Still feel we could unlink the pricing on open markets from the gas price, but will look some more

They are businesses and without the regulation that dictates how prices can be set they could set them any way they wanted................ like all businesses do if they are not forced to do it a certain way.

They are not allowed to remove the standing charge for example and many want to.

Regulations need to change to allow the Green Energy companies to show what can happen to prices under Green energy. At the moment they can't so people mostly have no idea how cheap it could be - I am sure if they did they would suddentl;y like turbines.

[fred quimby]

15 minutes ago, Nobody Interesting said:

They are businesses and without the regulation that dictates how prices can be set they could set them any way they wanted................ like all businesses do if they are not forced to do it a certain way.

They are not allowed to remove the standing charge for example and many want to.

Regulations need to change to allow the Green Energy companies to show what can happen to prices under Green energy. At the moment they can't so people mostly have no idea how cheap it could be - I am sure if they did they would suddentl;y like turbines.

Yep all of this

[Neil]

3 hours ago, steviewevie said:

If I was to choose any of the republican candidates I think it would be Nikki Haley. None of them stand a chance of course, unless they can really lock him up.

the people who choodse the candidate love the fruitcake stuff.

[steviewevie]

We're with ecotricity and they seem to be more expensive, I guess they argue that they need more to invest or something.