news & politics:discussion

[Neil]

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

My point wasnt a moral one, just realistic. A one state solution in which palestinians become full citizens of the state of israel undermines the objectives of a hard line, nationalist israeli government.

it undermines the whole purpose of an Israel. its hardly surprising that Jews want to control their own destiny given the history of persecution.

[Neil]

14 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Ah okay. Sometimes I like to imagine things too.

yeah, we've noticed you imagined that corbyn was unfairly treated.

[fraybentos1]

2 hours ago, gizmoman said:

Of course it is, what has that got to do with my point?

almost everything

[fraybentos1]

Just now, Neil said:

yeah, we've noticed you imagined that corbyn was unfairly treated.

shut up about corbyn for 5 mins will you 

 

[Guest]

They are a laughing stock. 

[Neil]

the text  ("Dogger: the much-loved children’s classic")made me laugh don't think its quite appropriate, 

https://amzn.eu/d/2HEKIQy

Edited October 12, 2023 by Neil

[steviewevie]

Israel have has told everyone in N Gaza to move to S Gaza. UN has told Israel that's impossible and rescind it. There are too many people in that small area, they're not going to be able to take out Hamas without killing everyone. I don't know what answer is, but this is probably the sort of thing that Hamas wants.

[Neil]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

Israel have has told everyone in N Gaza to move to S Gaza. UN has told Israel that's impossible and rescind it. There are too many people in that small area, they're not going to be able to take out Hamas without killing everyone. I don't know what answer is, but this is probably the sort of thing that Hamas wants.

Yeah attacks are not about the action, threy're about the reaction. Hamas prolly want Israel to act extreme.

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, Neil said:

Yeah attacks are not about the action, threy're about the reaction. Hamas prolly want Israel to act extreme.

I don't know what they actually want. Chaos? End of deals between Arab nations and Israel? The end of Netanyahu govt? A wider war and destruction of Israel? All I know is they're c**ts. Israel need to step back, but their people are angry and want revenge, as will Palestinans for the response so far, and so it carries on. 

[steviewevie]

There's also these hostages. Surely that complicates any planned invasion of Gaza.

[mattiloy]

10 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Israel have has told everyone in N Gaza to move to S Gaza. UN has told Israel that's impossible and rescind it. There are too many people in that small area, they're not going to be able to take out Hamas without killing everyone. I don't know what answer is, but this is probably the sort of thing that Hamas wants.

Do you think that Israel will let them return when they’re done flattening it? Would there be anything to return to?

Thats the point. Whilst the rest of the world unites in supporting ’Israel’s right to defend itself’- it appears that the Israeli govt is less concerned with self defense or rescuing hostages and more concerned with advancing their core goal of illegally emptying more land of palestinians and acquiring it for themselves.

It looks like a one state solution might actually happen then, but by final flourish after a century of ethnic cleansing rather than any attempt to reconcile the two peoples.

[squirrelarmy]

30 minutes ago, Neil said:

Yeah attacks are not about the action, threy're about the reaction. Hamas prolly want Israel to act extreme.

Hamas leadership don’t care about the people getting killed in their name. They’re nice and safe in their Qatar hotels watching from afar. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by squirrelarmy

[mattiloy]

The success of the propaganda campaign by Israel over the years can be measured by how many western liberals who vociferously defend multiculturalism in their own countries, will unequivocally support the netanyahu’s jewish supremacist government’s crusade to complete the unification of the country under a jewish ethnocracy.

I wonder what they will say when there is no palestine left. ’Problem solved?’

Edited October 13, 2023 by mattiloy

[steviewevie]

22 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Do you think that Israel will let them return when they’re done flattening it? Would there be anything to return to?

Thats the point. Whilst the rest of the world unites in supporting ’Israel’s right to defend itself’- it appears that the Israeli govt is less concerned with self defense or rescuing hostages and more concerned with advancing their core goal of illegally emptying more land of palestinians and acquiring it for themselves.

It looks like a one state solution might actually happen then, but by final flourish after a century of ethnic cleansing rather than any attempt to reconcile the two peoples.

I'm sure that is the thinking of some in Netanyahu's govt. In the end they want security. Gaza was occupied by Israel, then they got out and Hamas took over and here we are.

[steviewevie]

18 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

The success of the propaganda campaign by Israel over the years can be measured by how many western liberals who vociferously defend multiculturalism in their own countries, will unequivocally support the netanyahu’s jewish supremacist government’s crusade to complete the unification of the country under a jewish ethnocracy.

Who is supporting that?

[pink_triangle]

12 hours ago, fraybentos1 said:

Call it naive if you want, but if you were a younger Labour member who cared a lot about tuition fees for example I think they have every right to be annoyed.

Of course you have a right to be annoyed. When money is tight everyone will be annoyed about something.  From a personal perspective I need to be persuaded that getting rid of tuition fees is the right thing to do. I feel that a regressive change when I would look for something more progressive.

[squirrelarmy]

5 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Who is supporting that?

It’s no surprise that the Corbyn apologist is the one defending the regime that is literally decapitating babies in the name of religion. 
 

All because one side think that their interpretation of a fairy tale is better than the other sides interpretation of a fairy tale. 
 

There won’t be any peace in the Middle East as long as people continue to be brainwashed by religion. 

[Neil]

51 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

Hamas leadership don’t care about the people getting killed in their name.

very true, Israel only rockets Gaza after Gaza rockets Israel.

[steviewevie]

I used to be very much anti Israel when I was a younger lefty, I was probably a bit antisemitic too in some of the jokes I made to my lefty friends..but that has changed over time as I have learnt more about zionism...and basically it's complicated and nuanced and I can see both sides of the argument. There is antisemitism in my family too...from the right with my Dad who is basically a racist these days, and from the left my brother who like a lot on the left just put US/Israel/Capitalism all in the same box and anyone who opposes they support, whether it's Islamists, Iran, Russia or China. The bloke loves a conspiracy, and most of it comes down to antisemitim.

I also went to Israel a few years ago with work. I didn't want to, but I did, and that changed my opinion a bit too. The office was on an old kibbutz north of Tel Aviv, and someone we were working with was telling us it's history, how set up as an idealist communist thing, then became more miltiarised as fighting and wars started. Most of people in office were young and fit (and loud!) and had to spend time in the military every now and again. They were also as far as I could tell secular and on the left, liberal Tel Aviv types. Israel actually seemed quite multicultural, and one night we got stuck in traffic in Tel Aviv as muslims were out everywhere celebrating Eid. Also, the office had one safe escape room, in the middle with no windows and escape hatches top and bottom. All buildings have to have them. Anyway, I guess that informed me a bit too, but that is definitely seeing one side of the situation! So I don't think Israel is the fountain of all evil any more, but I do wish they would get a more liberal/left govt again, and a proper two state solution found, I guess 68 borders is best that can be hoped for at moment. 

What Hamas did wasn't desperate people being desperate, it was planned for. They went in heavily armed, and did what they did. Took hostages. Killed women and children. Took films of dead people on back of trucks or old people taken hostages to put on social media for their jew hating supporters. And they would have known that Israel would want revenge, and that would mean more death and misery for Gazans. They are mysoginist fascists like Isis and like the c**ts in charge of Iran.

[steviewevie]

2 hours ago, steviewevie said:

Israel have has told everyone in N Gaza to move to S Gaza. UN has told Israel that's impossible and rescind it. There are too many people in that small area, they're not going to be able to take out Hamas without killing everyone. I don't know what answer is, but this is probably the sort of thing that Hamas wants.

Hamas are telling Gazans to stay home, don't fool for it.

[Skip997]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

Who is supporting that?

More or less everyone.

Palestinians the forgotten people.

[mattiloy]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

Who is supporting that?

Either they are supporting that, or they are too thick to understand that that is the consequence of unconditional support for a regime who are motivated by that ambition and their response to last week’s atrocities is guided by that.

1 hour ago, squirrelarmy said:

It’s no surprise that the Corbyn apologist is the one defending the regime that is literally decapitating babies in the name of religion. 
 

All because one side think that their interpretation of a fairy tale is better than the other sides interpretation of a fairy tale. 
 

There won’t be any peace in the Middle East as long as people continue to be brainwashed by religion. 

Speaking of thick.. you talk of fairytales and yet you appear to believe that the is a disney film, good vs evil. The situation over there is as messy as it gets. I’m simply saying that the best outcome - a resolution to the conflict and a minimisation of human suffering now and start to the negotiations for the final form of the region and the gradual and difficult process of reconciliation - is incompatible with a stance of unconditional support for the Israeli government. Which appears to be the stance for many in the west, including the Labour party. And indeed has been for years, as simply ignoring the apartheid of recent decades has legitimised it and makes the west complicit in the current disastrous humanitarian crisis.

Edited October 13, 2023 by mattiloy

[Skip997]

4 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Either they are supporting that, or they are too thick to understand that that is the consequence of unconditional support for a regime who are motivated by that ambition and their response to last week’s atrocities is guided by that.

Speaking of thick.. you talk of fairytales and yet you appear to believe that the is a disney film, good vs evil. The situation over there is as messy as it gets. I’m simply saying that the best outcome - a resolution to the conflict and a minimisation of human suffering now and start to the negotiations for the final form of the region and the gradual and difficult process of reconciliation - is incompatible with a stance of unconditional support for the Israeli government. Which appears to be the stance for many in the west, including the Labour party. And indeed has been for years, as simply ignoring the apartheid of recent decades has legitimised it and makes the west complicit in the current disastrous humanitarian crisis.

Correct again @mattiloy

Palestine, i.e. West Bank and Gaza are of no use to "the west", Israeli is, simple as that. 

[steviewevie]

 

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, Skip997 said:

Correct again @mattiloy

Palestine, i.e. West Bank and Gaza are of no use to "the west", Israeli is, simple as that. 

how is Israel of use to the west?

Surely what would be useful to the west is a peaceful middle east.