news & politics:discussion

[lazyred]

6 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

What I want to know is if they do manage to eliminate Hamas, then what?

Seems like Isreal/US want the Palestinian Authority to take over again with a peace keeping force from the friendlier/anti Iranian  Arab Govts - Egypt, Jordan, UAE and maybe Saudis.

[lazyred]

This is the full Andy McDonald speech. He accuses Isreal of commiting war crimes on an unprecendented scale and says it is another Nakba He goes on to quote a Gazan who says Isreal are not in Gaza to fight Hamas but to ethnically cleanse Palestinians. It ends with a chant of Free Free Palestine

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, lazyred said:

This is the full Andy McDonald speech. He accuses Isreal of commiting war crimes on an unprecendented scale and says it is another Nakba He goes on to quote a Gazan who says Isreal are not in Gaza to fight Hamas but to ethnically cleanse Palestinians. It ends with a chant of Free Free Palestine

 

He's kind of doubled down in his response just now as well. He should come out with a full apology but he won't do that.

[steviewevie]

8 hours ago, lazyred said:

Seems like Isreal/US want the Palestinian Authority to take over again with a peace keeping force from the friendlier/anti Iranian  Arab Govts - Egypt, Jordan, UAE and maybe Saudis.

ok, well good luck with that. If there's going to be any deals like that then Israel at the very least are going to have to get their settlers out of the West Bank.

[steviewevie]

7 hours ago, Ozanne said:

He's kind of doubled down in his response just now as well. He should come out with a full apology but he won't do that.

I mean, he's kind of right in what he has said about Israel, but he should also condemn Hamas atrocities and the rise of antisemitism here and everywhere (and not use that river to the sea line). It's almost as if he wants to be kicked out and join Corbs and Abbott.

Edited October 31, 2023 by steviewevie

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I mean, he's kind of right in what he has said about Israel, but he should also condemn Hamas atrocities and the rise of antisemitism here and everywhere (and not use that river to the sea line). It's almost as if he wants to be kicked out and join Corbs and Abbott.

It doesn’t really matter if he’s right or wrong. He’s used a phrase which has connotations to anti-semitism at a time when Jews have been attacked. He should know better than this and err on the side of caution. There’s no excuse for it. 

[steviewevie]

Starmer doing a speech today on all this, try and show who's boss etc.

[steviewevie]

Dom Cummings is at the COVID inquiry today. 

🍿

[steviewevie]

 

 

[Skip997]

But

Israeli's right to "defend" themselves

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

But

Israeli's right to "defend" themselves

I mean if course it has that right, as every state has...but I guess the question is what that actually involves.. and this attack on Gaza is not even close to being proportional. But again, what did Hamas really expect?

[Rufus Gwertigan]

This explains the situation well.

 

https://youtu.be/L0Zb9iUi0JM?si=yOa_4-oLCnr8Fuel

[steviewevie]

28 minutes ago, Rufus Gwertigan said:

This explains the situation well.

 

https://youtu.be/L0Zb9iUi0JM?si=yOa_4-oLCnr8Fuel

very good.

[steviewevie]

Starmer doing his speech now.

 

[steviewevie]

I wonder if there will be any resignations....

[lazyred]

3 hours ago, steviewevie said:

ok, well good luck with that. If there's going to be any deals like that then Israel at the very least are going to have to get their settlers out of the West Bank.

Yep, cant remember where but read a report about what the PA think about about it. They see it as giving them a good negotiating hand and removing west bank settlers is a high priority.

Isreali settlers were removed when Isreal got out of Gaza so they have done it before. The settlements are worse in the West Bank since Netanyahu took over but his strategy of divding and containing the Palestinians is busted. It will take force to clear the settlers so Isreal need good security guarantees before they do it.

It all looks bleak but we don't know what everyone really thinks.  Each side has to placate their followers with extreme positions at the moment. All we can hope is the diplomatic stuff is going on behind closed doors.

[lazyred]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

I mean if course it has that right, as every state has...but I guess the question is what that actually involves.. and this attack on Gaza is not even close to being proportional. But again, what did Hamas really expect?

Its proportional if you think Hamas has to be destoyed. The situation has changed. This wasn't the usual sending teenagers out to get shot at or someone getting on a bus with a knife or firing rockets into Isreal. It was a big invasion and 1400 civilians were killed and hostages taken. As well as revenge Isreal think they can't contain Hamas so they have to get rid of them. There were 30000 fighters with anti tank weapons and rockets in a very densly populated area and tunnels everywhere. We know they are based within residential areas and hospitals. How else can they do it?

[steviewevie]

9 minutes ago, lazyred said:

Its proportional if you think Hamas has to be destoyed. The situation has changed. This wasn't the usual sending teenagers out to get shot at or someone getting on a bus with a knife or firing rockets into Isreal. It was a big invasion and 1400 civilians were killed and hostages taken. As well as revenge Isreal think they can't contain Hamas so they have to get rid of them. There were 30000 fighters with anti tank weapons and rockets in a very densly populated area and tunnels everywhere. We know they are based within residential areas and hospitals. How else can they do it?

I don't know...but cutting off food, water, electricity and aid to two million people doesn't seem proportional...and what we at now, over 8000 deaths including over 3000 children? and god knows what that will be in a few weeks...isn't it usually 10/1 ratio of Palestinian deaths to Israeli deaths, so maybe we're nearly there...

Edited October 31, 2023 by steviewevie

[lazyred]

18 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I don't know...but cutting off food, water, electricity and aid to two million people doesn't seem proportional...and what we at now, over 8000 deaths including over 3000 children? and god knows what that will be in a few weeks...isn't it usually 10/1 ratio of Palestinian deaths to Israeli deaths, so maybe we're nearly there...

We can agree on that. The people can't get out so aid, water and fuel has to go in. 

[cellar]

16 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Said it before and will say it again, zero independent analysis of these numbers is happening.  Its coming from the mouths of terrorists.

I don't deny people have died but we need to be wary of just taking everything Hamas say as gospel. 

It's the Gaza Health Authority reporting those figures, which Hamas does exert some influence over, but not to same degree as other services.

Their figures have been broadly accurate in previous conflicts in terms of numbers (disagreements over civillian vs military), so there's nothing to suggest at the moment that the numbers we're seeing now are wildly incorrect.

[pink_triangle]

13 hours ago, steviewevie said:

Ministers and MPs are publicly supporting a ceasefire which is not party policy, and starmer not doing anything about it. That is a weakened position from before.

Those ministers and MPs probably won’t be the one dealing with the Israel regime if they win the election. Starmer has to think a few moves ahead. Also I have no doubt some are positioning themselves should the leadership vacancy ever become available rather than any ideology.

[fred quimby]

13 hours ago, Ommadawn said:

PMSL

I had a chuckle too

[pink_triangle]

2 hours ago, steviewevie said:

I mean if course it has that right, as every state has...but I guess the question is what that actually involves.. and this attack on Gaza is not even close to being proportional. But again, what did Hamas really expect?

The thing is it’s easy to say it’s not proportional, I haven’t seen anyone make a good, reasoned article what is proportional.

[Skip997]

Just now, pink_triangle said:

The thing is it’s easy to say it’s not proportional, I haven’t seen anyone make a good, reasoned article what is proportional.

Of course it's not proportional.

I've absolutely no idea what people think is going on here, but the acceptance of/support for the genocide being perpetrated by Israeli is sickening.

This is my last post on the subject, so please don't bother replying.

[pink_triangle]

2 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

Of course it's not proportional.

I've absolutely no idea what people think is going on here, but the acceptance of/support for the genocide being perpetrated by Israeli is sickening.

This is my last post on the subject, so please don't bother replying.

But that’s not my point. The question is what is proportional?