news & politics:discussion

[steviewevie]

30 minutes ago, lost said:

 

Yeah but I mean specifically the NHS. Do we raise taxes to 90 year highs, muddle along for 3 or 4 years for the pyramid on which social security is based to become a bit more oblongy then raise taxes to 100 year highs then repeat every 3 or 4 years?

As far I can see, refusing to even look into if a system that was set up when we had 40 - 50 workers paying in vs 1 taking out vs soon to be 3 to 1 needs a bit of an update, is like the yanks who still think every facet of the right to bear arms from the wild west days is still relevant.

I agree they need to look at any reforms that can help save money...but I just can't see there being many savings and still not being a need to keep spending on health services rising along with demand, unless they plan on demand decreasing by those that can afford to go private. We are older, and sicker...we can't do much about the older thing, but the sicker thing can be tackled by a bit less austerity.

Edited January 23 by steviewevie

[Crazyfool01]

hinkley delayed 2 years ... now open in 2029 ...... delays and ever increasing costs what a shock another big project not delivered on time 

[steviewevie]

21 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

hinkley delayed 2 years ... now open in 2029 ...... delays and ever increasing costs what a shock another big project not delivered on time 

should have left China to sort it out.

[Skip997]

45 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

hinkley delayed 2 years ... now open in 2029 ...... delays and ever increasing costs what a shock another big project not delivered on time 

It's incredibly unusual for a nuclear reactor to be built on time or within budget. Not sure it's ever been done, although I guess the Chinese may have managed.

 

[Neil]

8 hours ago, lost said:

I'd say Streeting is spot on and its the main reason I'll be voting labour next time. Labour are doing the right thing looking at the Australian system. You can see a little plateu around "austerity years"  2011 - 2013ish apart from that spending has just got straight up in real terms and as far as I can see hasn't provided a better service.

 

Depends what you mean by better service. If you go by press reports theres no functioning NHS anymore. Biggest surprise of my long hospital stay was how good it Still is : )

 

 

[Neil]

25 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

should have left China to sort it out.

China not involved in Hinckley I don't think. It's the French!

[Crazyfool01]

3 minutes ago, Neil said:

China not involved in Hinckley I don't think. It's the French!

 

[mattiloy]

6 hours ago, lost said:

Theres been a book written about it:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-labour-2017-election-campaign-nhs-spending-plans-a8555621.html

 

Says the undead Rentoul quoting somebody who maybe heard somebody say it. Ffs.

https://ifs.org.uk/articles/labours-manifesto-spending-plans-are-impossible-cost

Although I disagree with the ifs guy. It is possible to model the effect of the tax and spend, but it would probably be a PhDs worth of work to do so. And pointless if you never get to know the outcome.

Edited January 23 by mattiloy

[Neil]

3 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

 

The financing isn't causing the building delays 

[Crazyfool01]

5 minutes ago, Neil said:

The financing isn't causing the building delays 

Neither are the French . Maybe a shortage of skilled workers ?! 

[steviewevie]

10 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

 

Says the undead Rentoul quoting somebody who maybe heard somebody say it. Ffs.

https://ifs.org.uk/articles/labours-manifesto-spending-plans-are-impossible-cost

Although I disagree with the ifs guy. It is possible to model the effect of the tax and spend, but it would probably be a PhDs worth of work to do so. And pointless if you never get to know the outcome.

based on this

[Neil]

4 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

Neither are the French 

EDF have been building quite a few to this design they've all over-run.

[mattiloy]

2 hours ago, lost said:

Not sure where you've read that. The OECD average is 9.2% of GDP we spend 11.3%.

Remember the top countries in europe like Germany and France have a private element so we can't compare apples and oranges. From a purely state funded point of view we are pretty much maxed out.

🙂 I said the lowest per capita. Not the lowest % of gdp.
 

The UKs gdp per capita is lower than most comparable countries - also the most recent % of gdp figure is a bit f**ked anyway because the uk’s gdp took a bigger hit from covid than most during a period where it also spent a f**k ton on health only to get a load of lousy ppe and a sh*tty app. Back in 2019 the total healthcare spend as a % of gdp figure you use (which includes private spending) was around 10%, the state element of that, as per my previous post was around 7% of gdp.

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2021/aug/04/nhs-drops-from-first-to-fourth-among-rich-countries-healthcare-systems
 

The NHS has punched above its weight given the demand, and the starving of resources for too long. And thats sort of the point, make it sh*t, blame the system, introduce the private sector, all aboard the gravy train. You, the tories, Wes - in it together!

[mattiloy]

18 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

based on this

Right so based on f**k all then

[Neil]

10 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

🙂 I said the lowest per capita. Not the lowest % of gdp.
 

The UKs gdp per capita is lower than most comparable countries - also the most recent % of gdp figure is a bit f**ked anyway because the uk’s gdp took a bigger hit from covid than most during a period where it also spent a f**k ton on health only to get a load of lousy ppe and a sh*tty app. Back in 2019 the total healthcare spend as a % of gdp figure you use (which includes private spending) was around 10%, the state element of that, as per my previous post was around 7% of gdp.

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2021/aug/04/nhs-drops-from-first-to-fourth-among-rich-countries-healthcare-systems
 

The NHS has punched above its weight given the demand, and the starving of resources for too long. And thats sort of the point, make it sh*t, blame the system, introduce the private sector,

that's exactly how it goes with nationalised industries cos people/govts always rob the funds from the nationalised industries to pay for other public wants - that's how come they get starved of resources (the resources do get allocated to them, there's just no follow thru when resources are tight).

[Neil]

Do you want a new train or a new hospital....? 

An easy question for the public to answer.

[Neil]

I'm off tomorrow to help provide a contacted out service to the NHS . Provided by a charity's volunteers like me, delivering a service which the NHS itself Never provided.

[steviewevie]

14 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Right so based on f**k all then

It's the bible...reported for blasphemy.

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, Neil said:

Do you want a new train or a new hospital....? 

An easy question for the public to answer.

Probably depends who you ask.

[steviewevie]

Turkish parliament has approved Sweden joining NATO.

[lost]

42 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

🙂 I said the lowest per capita. Not the lowest % of gdp.
 

The UKs gdp per capita is lower than most comparable countries - also the most recent % of gdp figure is a bit f**ked anyway because the uk’s gdp took a bigger hit from covid than most during a period where it also spent a f**k ton on health only to get a load of lousy ppe and a sh*tty app. Back in 2019 the total healthcare spend as a % of gdp figure you use (which includes private spending) was around 10%, the state element of that, as per my previous post was around 7% of gdp.

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2021/aug/04/nhs-drops-from-first-to-fourth-among-rich-countries-healthcare-systems
 

The NHS has punched above its weight given the demand, and the starving of resources for too long. And thats sort of the point, make it sh*t, blame the system, introduce the private sector, all aboard the gravy train. You, the tories, Wes - in it together!

As far as I can see your graph proves my point. The blue bit is well above the OECD average and puts us in the top 7 for state funding. There doesn't appear to be any comparable country signifcantly higher for state funding and the top countries have completely different systems where the private sector does more of the work.

Edited January 23 by lost

[Neil]

40 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Probably depends who you ask.

The selfish might say train the public spirited Will say hospital.

[lazyred]

 

[mattiloy]

45 minutes ago, lost said:

As far as I can see your graph proves my point. The blue bit is well above the OECD average and puts us in the top 10 for state funding. There doesn't appear to be any comparable country signifcantly higher for state funding and the top countries have completely different systems where the private sector does more of the work.

Thats weird because I thought it proved my point that the UK health system has worsening outcomes because its cash starved.

Yes it is above the OECD average, but so is the UK’s gdp per capita. Dough! I have some good recommendations for primers in statistics if you’d like 👍 

But yeah, lets get down to it. I get what you’re saying.

We agree that there are worsening health outcomes in the UK. You started by backing the Wes Streeting nonsense that efficiencies were sufficient to remediate the issues. But you’ve ended up arguing that the only way to increase the health budget is by introducing an insurance based system. Which fine, its not the end of the world when done like france (Ie, lots of exclusions where poor, vulnerable, long term sick, then the state picks up the tab). But it IS less efficient because then it ends up being just like a means tested tax on working people but with an industry of middle men administrating it.

Just increase tax. Or divert from trident or one of the many other completely useless fiscal black holes.

 

Edited January 23 by mattiloy

[Neil]

58 minutes ago, lazyred said:

 

new pm won't do it, especially from the liz truss wing.