news & politics:discussion

[fred quimby]

28 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

 

The only thing I'm going to add to what crazyfool has already said that the ban had nothing to do with his expressed political views. It's worth emphasising that in the first 5 years where I was a mod I argued with him repeatedly on political issues here and he never once got banned for any of that behaviour.

Aye, certainly would know he wouldn't have been banned on that.

[lazyred]

19 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

the problem was that a border had to go somewhere...this seems to be the best fudge possible.

I think we'll end up with something close to Theresa May's deal, perhaps even a customs union when Labour win.

[kaosmark2]

21 minutes ago, fred quimby said:

Aye, certainly would know he wouldn't have been banned on that.

I just wanted to make that completely and unequivocally clear to anyone reading.

[Neil]

52 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

no, just partial occupation...it is hardly accepting Palestine as an autonomous sovereign state.

If given autonomy it throws bombs over the fence. That's not a secure Israel.

[Neil]

26 minutes ago, lazyred said:

I think we'll end up with something close to Theresa May's deal, perhaps even a customs union when Labour win.

I think you're hoping for too much. A custom's union would come with other obligations (perhaps free movement) that would be a step too far if not an explicit part of Labours manifesto.

[Skip997]

2 minutes ago, Neil said:

If given autonomy it throws bombs over the fence. That's not a secure Israel.

How do you know?

It's never had autonomy.

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, Neil said:

If given autonomy it throws bombs over the fence. That's not a secure Israel.

yeah well obviously that would be part of any deal towards a 2 state solution...

[steviewevie]

Just now, Skip997 said:

How do you know?

It's never had autonomy.

they gave them a bit more autonomy when pulled out of Gaza and look what happened...

[Neil]

2 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

How do you know?

It's never had autonomy.

Gaza has just not sovereign autonomy. It was self governing and the bombs kept coming over the fence. Why would Israel agree to being bombed?

[Skip997]

Just now, Neil said:

Gaza has just not sovereign autonomy. It was self governing and the bombs kept coming over the fence. Why would Israel agree to being bombed?

Why would Gaza agree to be effectively imprisoned with goods and personnel only leaving at the whim of Israel. Why would Gaza agree to have it's olive groves and orchards destroyed, have it's land stolen by Zionist "settlers", have it's water supply turned on and off at the whim of Israel, have it's youth arrested and imprisoned with no charges (because they haven't done anything other than be Palestinian) etc etc 

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

Why would Gaza agree to be effectively imprisoned with goods and personnel only leaving at the whim of Israel. Why would Gaza agree to have it's olive groves and orchards destroyed, have it's land stolen by Zionist "settlers", have it's water supply turned on and off at the whim of Israel, have it's youth arrested and imprisoned with no charges (because they haven't done anything other than be Palestinian) etc etc 

I guess best way to resolve that would be to go into Israel and kill a load of Jews and take a bunch more hostage, and make sure film it so can upload clips on social media. 

[Neil]

13 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

Why would Gaza agree to be effectively imprisoned with goods and personnel only leaving at the whim of Israel. Why would Gaza agree to have it's olive groves and orchards destroyed, have it's land stolen by Zionist "settlers", have it's water supply turned on and off at the whim of Israel, have it's youth arrested and imprisoned with no charges (because they haven't done anything other than be Palestinian) etc etc 

Why would it l? For a ceasefire and a chance to rebuild from the much greater destruction it brought on itself by the October 7th attacks.

[steviewevie]

 

[Neil]

Gaza can have better if it wants better .

[Skip997]

1 minute ago, Neil said:

Gaza can have better if it wants better .

From who?

Because you can bet your life it ain't getting F-all from Israel

[Neil]

1 minute ago, Skip997 said:

From who?

Because you can bet your life it ain't getting F-all from Israel

Gaza had better until it decided to sh*t it's own bed.

[Neil]

You're Making perfect the enemy of better.

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, Neil said:

Gaza can have better if it wants better .

There needs to be an agreement, like they got close with the Oslo two state thingy...but there are so many hurdles can't see it ever happening...the settlers in west bank, the fact that most of Gaza now needs rebuilding, the hate, the history,...but that should still be the goal even if it is totally unrealistic. Leadership on both sides needs changing, but there doesn't seem to be anyone there on both sides. Whole thing is a massive f**king disaster.

[Skip997]

2 minutes ago, Neil said:

Gaza had better until it decided to sh*t it's own bed.

Most things are better than being bombed to oblivion, doesn't make them good though.

[Neil]

12 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

Most things are better than being bombed to oblivion, doesn't make them good though.

They weren't being bombed to Oblivion until they went murdering and raping.

[Crazyfool01]

[Neil]

15 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

There needs to be an agreement, like they got close with the Oslo two state thingy...but there are so many hurdles can't see it ever happening...the settlers in west bank, the fact that most of Gaza now needs rebuilding, the hate, the history,...but that should still be the goal even if it is totally unrealistic. Leadership on both sides needs changing, but there doesn't seem to be anyone there on both sides. Whole thing is a massive f**king disaster.

Any compromise deal will need both sides to accept they can't have everything they want.

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, Neil said:

Any compromise deal will need both sides to accept they can't have everything they want.

well yeah...that's how it works...

[steviewevie]

They nearly got there in the early 90s with Rabin and Arafat...Rabin got killed by his own side for it and along came Netanyahu and the rest is history. There was a chance then, probably gone now. It was all part of some good sh*t that was happening in the 90s, walls coming down and peace deals...end of history and all that. Different place now, western liberal democracy on the back foot, US approaching end of its dominance, WW3 round the corner, the end is nigh.

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

They nearly got there in the early 90s with Rabin and Arafat...Rabin got killed by his own side for it and along came Netanyahu and the rest is history. There was a chance then, probably gone now. It was all part of some good sh*t that was happening in the 90s, walls coming down and peace deals...end of history and all that. Different place now, western liberal democracy on the back foot, US approaching end of its dominance, WW3 round the corner, the end is nigh.

and actually reading stuff on wikipedia about this, Arafat f**ked it too.

In 2000, after Yasser Arafat rejected the offer made to him by Ehud Barak based on a two-state solution and declined to negotiate for an alternative plan,^[18] it became clear that Arafat would not make a deal with Israel unless it included the full Palestinian right of return, which would demographically destroy^[19] the Jewish character^{[when defined as?]} of the State of Israel.^[20][21] For this reason, critics of Arafat claim that he put his desire to destroy the Jewish state above his dream of building an autonomous Palestinian state

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_views_on_the_peace_process