news & politics:discussion

[Guest]

This is a really interesting little thread for all you politics historians out there:

 

[steviewevie]

19 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

This is a really interesting little thread for all you politics historians out there:

 

In the early 50s weren't the tories promising an end to rationing, and labour wanted to keep it for longer...?

[mattiloy]

Finding it increasingly difficult to believe that its all part of the plan. This buffoon hasn’t a clue.

[eFestivals]

34 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Finding it increasingly difficult to believe that its all part of the plan. This buffoon hasn’t a clue.

And yet he has more of a clue than the last guy as well as many party members who still haven't worked out what it takes to win.

[squirrelarmy]

48 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Finding it increasingly difficult to believe that its all part of the plan. This buffoon hasn’t a clue.

I strongly believe the cow in that picture would have made a better PM than Corbyn. 
 

It’s time you got out of that fantasy world of make believe where you think the country will magically turn socialist if you elected an far left leader. 
 

We don’t have an electorate that will back those policies. Starmer may not be appealing to the far left minority but he is a credible alternative to a larger share of the voters may of who are those who left Labour to vote for the Tories. 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

I strongly believe the cow in that picture would have made a better PM than Corbyn. 
 

It’s time you got out of that fantasy world of make believe where you think the country will magically turn socialist if you elected an far left leader. 
 

We don’t have an electorate that will back those policies. Starmer may not be appealing to the far left minority but he is a credible alternative to a larger share of the voters may of who are those who left Labour to vote for the Tories. 

He’s also majestic, just look at him. 

[mattiloy]

22 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

I strongly believe the cow in that picture would have made a better PM than Corbyn. 
 

It’s time you got out of that fantasy world of make believe where you think the country will magically turn socialist if you elected an far left leader. 
 

We don’t have an electorate that will back those policies. Starmer may not be appealing to the far left minority but he is a credible alternative to a larger share of the voters may of who are those who left Labour to vote for the Tories. 

Wrong.

The last one is nationalising utilities.

On a policy by policy basis then people are supportive of left wing politics.

The media is part of the problem. The only time Corbyn’s policies penetrated it was when they were being slagged off by the right as looney left - imagine YouGov asked the questions again but framed like this: ’most sensible people believe that nationalising rails is unaffordable looney left pie in the sky stuff, anyway - nationalising rails - do you strongly agree, slightly agree...’

But even so, I think in the end its mainly a personality contest and Starmer simply doesnt have any.

[eFestivals]

Just now, mattiloy said:

The last one is nationalising utilities.

with one exception (rail), it's a meaningless stat without also asking if they're prepared to pay extra taxes for the utilities to be nationalised. 

Otherwise you're asking the electorate if they'd like magic with their politics.

[squirrelarmy]

43 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

He’s also majestic, just look at him. 

The cow 😉

[mattiloy]

14 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

with one exception (rail), it's a meaningless stat without also asking if they're prepared to pay extra taxes for the utilities to be nationalised. 

Otherwise you're asking the electorate if they'd like magic with their politics.

 

The middle one shows large support for a 50p tax. There is also large support for wealth tax, increasing corporation tax.

But even without taxes you can just do a leveraged buyout, finance the purchase with debt, service the debt with the profits - like the Glazers and man utd.

As the debt is paid down the % of profits going to service the debt diminishes and utility prices can start to fall and/or more can be reinvested in the infrastructure.

[squirrelarmy]

5 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

like the Glazers and man utd.

Running the country like a poor football club that is in debt up to their eyeballs? That’s a great idea 🙄
 

Also drawing comparisons to that particular football team means you’ve lost the support of most of the North. 

[eFestivals]

24 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

 

The middle one shows large support for a 50p tax.

That's a tax for other people, not for 'me'.

 

Quote

There is also large support for wealth tax, increasing corporation tax.

More taxes for other people.

In the social democratic states of Europe, taxes are not for other people. And balanced budgets are everything.

 

Quote

But even without taxes you can just do a leveraged buyout, finance the purchase with debt, service the debt with the profits - like the Glazers and man utd.

I love a bit of socialist capitalism. And an unguaranteed gamble.

 

Quote

As the debt is paid down the % of profits going to service the debt diminishes and utility prices can start to fall and/or more can be reinvested in the infrastructure.

Do you think people have never heard these arguments - or rejected them?

Ever wondered why they did reject them, seeing as you believe everyone agrees with them?

Edited February 24, 2021 by eFestivals

[Gilgamesh69]

Over 120k people dead and yet Starmer is still consistently behind in the polls. A lot of people would call that "being unelectable"

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, Gilgamesh69 said:

Over 120k people dead and yet Starmer is still consistently behind in the polls. A lot of people would call that "being unelectable"

He's trying to set the scene/tone for being elected, to the criteria that works with our electorate. Whether it works we'll get to see.

Unfortunately he has the damage caused by Corbyn to overcome, and that can't be turned around in an instant particularly with the continual carping of the Corbyn clan.

One thing that clan never offer up is Corbyn's heir, who would surely exist if the ideas of Corbyn were so goddam right.

[Haan]

9 minutes ago, Gilgamesh69 said:

Over 120k people dead and yet Starmer is still consistently behind in the polls. A lot of people would call that "being unelectable"

Starmer will see the current polls as an excuse to go even further right lmao

[eFestivals]

Just now, Haan said:

Starmer will see the current polls as an excuse to go even further right lmao

Just because he's not campaigning to your approved methodology doesn't make him veering strongly to the right. He's just not being a leftist introverted twat.

There's some vivid imaginations, and not just with brexiters. 

[squirrelarmy]

5 minutes ago, Gilgamesh69 said:

Over 120k people dead and yet Starmer is still consistently behind in the polls. A lot of people would call that "being unelectable"

That’s because the majority of the electorate who vote Tory can be split into two main groups. 
 

You have the high tax earners who don’t want their tax being spent on benefits for the poor. 
 

Then you have the right wing supporters who think socialism is communism and will lead to high immigration from people who are different to themselves. 
 

Labour need to be more appealing to those groups to be more electable. 
 

Being left wing is the better way of running the country but until you get elected and hold power that position is meaningless. 
 

Small steps are needed, people complain that Starmer is “Tory-lite”

Is that a bad thing? He’s far more progressive than the current government and if he does gain power in the next election then I expect some socialist polices to be enacted but it won’t be anywhere near as radical as Corbyns policies which is why he has more chance of being elected. 
 

It’s going to be a tough battle when you’re fighting against the right wing media bias. 

[Gilgamesh69]

1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

He's trying to set the scene/tone for being elected, to the criteria that works with our electorate. Whether it works we'll get to see.

Unfortunately he has the damage caused by Corbyn to overcome, and that can't be turned around in an instant particularly with the continual carping of the Corbyn clan.

One thing that clan never offer up is Corbyn's heir, who would surely exist if the ideas of Corbyn were so goddam right.

You mean the Corbyn who at this point in his run was doing much better than Starmer, and was often in the lead? You mean the Corbyn who was screwed over by the media and betrayed by his own party?

 

Just because his ideas were outside the shitty norm that the people of this country have Stockholm syndrome for, doesn't mean his policies were bad. Corbyn could have an heir, but the PLP is trying it's best to remove all actual left wing elements from the party... it's soon gonna be a party of red tie Tories. 

[Gilgamesh69]

People really be like "oh no, equality and people not starving to death on the streets?! That's too extreme for me!!!" 🙄

[st dan]

Would Starmer maybe lose some credibility trying to play politics too hard in the middle of a global pandemic? Is it insensitive to those who have lost loved ones? I think it could be, and we will see a shift in direction later in the year when the worst of this should be over. 

Of course, some will say that as the leader of the opposition it is his job to hold the government to account, and they are of course correct - but I do wonder if he’s considered whether it is the right time and place. It could well work out in his favour as part of the long game. 

[Haan]

5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Just because he's not campaigning to your approved methodology doesn't make him veering strongly to the right. He's just not being a leftist introverted twat.

 

 Compared to

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Haan

[Gilgamesh69]

4 minutes ago, st dan said:

Would Starmer maybe lose some credibility trying to play politics too hard in the middle of a global pandemic? 
 

If anything now is the time he should be acting as strong opposition, trying to give people hope that we can have something better than the Tories. But he's got no backbone and is flipflopping all over the place. Refer to that George Monbiot video I posted a few days ago, sums it up quite well

[steviewevie]

3 hours ago, mattiloy said:

Finding it increasingly difficult to believe that its all part of the plan. This buffoon hasn’t a clue.

you think he's lost?

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, Gilgamesh69 said:

You mean the Corbyn who at this point in his run was doing much better than Starmer, and was often in the lead? You mean the Corbyn who was screwed over by the media and betrayed by his own party?

I mean the Corbyn who failed twice, and whose strongest views were almost all at odds with the electorate. His baggage.

The Corbyn who was known to be crap by his colleagues. Who is admitted (nowadays) as the wrong guy even by those who still champion him.

Who (long before the coup) betrayed Shadow cabinet colleagues even over agreed policies. And laughed about it with McD.

Who knew Corbyn's years of baggage at odds with public opinion would be used against him? 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Gilgamesh69 said:

 

Just because his ideas were outside the shitty norm that the people of this country have Stockholm syndrome for, doesn't mean his policies were bad. Corbyn could have an heir, but the PLP is trying it's best to remove all actual left wing elements from the party... it's soon gonna be a party of red tie Tories. 

Yeah I know, he was too good to lead a country of thickos, who can't be working class because they disagreed with him.

Food for thought? Nah, who needs thought when Corbyn was right about everything.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, Haan said:

 

 Compared to

 

 

 

Who knew that 'soft on drugs' doesn't go well with the public?