news & politics:discussion

[Crazyfool01]

2 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

I agree...  Its a by default win for Labour on the card.  Sunak had a window of opportunity to salvage this I feel but has blown it with this cabinet. 

if they are self destructing like this already ... its only going to get worse as they scramble to try and hold their jobs 

[Kurosagi]

44 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Any sort of wealth tax will just hit the wealthy who already "do the right thing".  The ones who hide money away in offshore companies etc will just increase that practice.  And the problem with hitting the ones who "do the right thing" is it will in the end hit investment into the country.  This is a point often missed by the dogmatic lefties.  The naughty ones hide more money and the good ones just have their ability to reinvest hit.

Yes, I feel quite despondent about this practice (people/companies doing ever increasingly clever things to avoid paying tax) which has accelerated grotesquely over the last couple of decades (the Jimmy Carr and footballers of this world). There are a few 'rowntree' type owners/companies who understand the idea of 'society' and that if you don't pay your fair share then everything gets mucked up, but there's no where near enough good eggs to make a difference.

Whilst a lefty, I also agree that it's not the 70s anymore and so a straightforward tax increase on the wealthy is unlikely to raise the money it should because of the practices you mention. But what's the solution? I don't know enough about tax to understand how you could tighten the situation up these days to actually get a level playing field of people paying their fair share - do you? does anyone?

[Guest]

We could always change the law and close those tax loopholes to ensure that people do pay their share of tax.

Or just let the rich get richer and I’m sure some of it will fall down to the rest of us. 

[lost]

9 minutes ago, Kurosagi said:

Whilst a lefty, I also agree that it's not the 70s anymore and so a straightforward tax increase on the wealthy is unlikely to raise the money it should because of the practices you mention. But what's the solution? I don't know enough about tax to understand how you could tighten the situation up these days to actually get a level playing field of people paying their fair share - do you? does anyone?

Only thing I can think of is standardising tax rates globally. How possible that is I wouldn't have a clue.

Same things happened with corporation tax as in profits in "cyberspace" that are not at a physical location can really be reported where ever the company wants them to be. Alot of the time in Europe its Ireland with its 12.5% tax rate.

I can see the same thing happening with labour over the internet too. A mate of mine works a back office job for the NHS, negotiated a permanent work from home contract during lockdown and now works from Thailand. I think his visa works out about £250 a month but no tax on overseas earnings so that's all he pays. Saves a fortune in tax plus lower cost of living, better weather, better food.

[Kurosagi]

2 minutes ago, lost said:

A mate of mine works a back office job for the NHS, negotiated a permanent work from home contract during lockdown and now works from Thailand. I think his visa works out about £250 a month but no tax on overseas earnings so that's all he pays. Saves a fortune in tax plus lower cost of living, better weather, better food.

Living the dream, and difficult not to smile, but he fucks over the public sector he's working for.

[Guest]

https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=6617a846-dc0b-4dc4-8d60-21a95d0d1956
 

This has some ideas of how wealth taxes can help. 

[Kurosagi]

  

3 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=6617a846-dc0b-4dc4-8d60-21a95d0d1956
 

This has some ideas of how wealth taxes can help. 

Not really, comes to the same conclusion we're wrestling with (over the tax increase):

"This ignores the fact that many such individuals are internationally mobile, and the stability and overall effective rates of tax in each jurisdiction are an important factor in their decisions on residence. As such, taxpayer behaviour (including the departure from the UK of many High Net Worth taxpayers, who currently make significant contributions to the UK Exchequer) would significantly erode any increase in tax revenue."

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Kurosagi said:

  

Not really, comes to the same conclusion we're wrestling with (over the tax increase):

"This ignores the fact that many such individuals are internationally mobile, and the stability and overall effective rates of tax in each jurisdiction are an important factor in their decisions on residence. As such, taxpayer behaviour (including the departure from the UK of many High Net Worth taxpayers, who currently make significant contributions to the UK Exchequer) would significantly erode any increase in tax revenue."

It does give quite a few ideas, I was just trying to help as you asked the question. 

[steviewevie]

just eat them

[km9]

32 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

I wish you would join the dots sometime.  You was bemoaning how growth in this country is low.  And you post something which says let's tax investment.

How do you think you grow while destroying investment?   

Personally I would look at a combination of Death taxes, inheritance taxes and global agreement on tax rates standardisation.    Those are the three pillars of more fair society.  I would remove as much tax as possible around capital gains and investment / profits from investment.  We shouldn't overally tax success or treat it like a negative thing. 

Agree, especially regarding death duty. It's not popular, but inheriting from your parents just means the rich stay rich.

[steviewevie]

anyway...this whole argument about what taxes to raise or what budgets to cut wouldn't be happening if Truss hadn't fucked us with her idiot ideas she got from some idiot think tanks like IEA...because if Sunak had got in originally or Johnson had stayed it would likely have been just steady as it goes apart from a big load of help for people to pay for energy like in other european countries....so yeah we have some bad times because of Russia etc...but it is Truss that led us back to more austerity, and the Tories that delivered the hardest brexit they could, and the Tories that fucked us with over the top and unnecessary austerity 2010 onwards which just helped with fuck all growth and just ended up making life shit for a lot of people in this country. We are fucked and it isn't all because of government choices, but a lot of it is.

[steviewevie]

The 2010s were the time to borrow to invest, not cut spending on everything, especially stuff that hits lowest paid...low interest rates...it was all there, but instead they just cut for ideology and nothing more. c**ts. Osborne is a c**t, and Cameron is a c**t, and I wish them both hell.

[steviewevie]

Other G7 countries are not seeing what we're seeing. The recession is worst here, and the likely austerity is worst, like it was also in the 2010s. People need to wake the fuck up and stop blaming people the EU or people coming in on boats or we mustn't do wealth taxes because they obviously wouldn't work and we need these rich people obviously. Fucking morons. Fishy fucking morons.

[km9]

7 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

and funny enough its the poor who often bemoan the suggestion despite them being the most likely to profit.  

Absolutely correct 

[steviewevie]

and I don't know if Starmer's labour is the answer, and yes he's spouting shit to please red wall c**ts...but surely labour have got to be better, otherwise what is the fucking point?! At least there's a chance of investing in some green shit, some future that isn't just little englander blame farang shite, even if you're a free market goon you can see the future is carbon free and that is where the money will be...but instead we argue over fracking for fucks sake, or whatever culture war shite is making the front page of mail/express/scum, is this country really that fucking stupid? Are we that pathetically backwards...maybe it's just a human thing, but seems to be a particularly british human thing. We need a break from these endless w*nk governments.

[steviewevie]

oh and a down vote from baz. You can fuck off fishhead, I see some of the nasty stuff you have written about me and what happened at Glastonbury for your pathetic little point scoring. You're a prime c**t.

[Guest]

Ideas are suggested but get instantly panned, so it’s now status quo because any ideas that are suggested are too difficult to work. So it’ll be tax rises that’ll impact the poorest the most and if you dare to speak out you’ll get grief for it. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

oh and a down vote from baz. You can fuck off fishhead, I see some of the nasty stuff you have written about me and what happened at Glastonbury for your pathetic little point scoring. You're a prime c**t.

Please try to ignore him, he’s not worth it mate. You are awesome. 

[Crazyfool01]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/12/revealed-the-30bn-cost-of-liz-trusss-disastrous-mini-budget 

https://fullfact.org/health/test-and-trace-37-billion/

 

unless my maths is wrong thats 67 billion ..... so Austerity is caused by the tories and not bound to happen ? 

Germany test and trace 48 million 

we could add in Brexit to this .....

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Crazyfool01

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Please try to ignore him, he’s not worth it mate. You are awesome. 

😘

[Crazyfool01]

Just now, Barry Fish said:

You are operating some weird arse thinking if you want to grab one thing and so - oh thats the reason...

Its a combination of Brexit / covid and the energy crisis.  The fact we had a Liz for a month only put fuel on the already burning fire.  Pretty much everyone sees it this way except for a handful of efestival posters with dogmatic views on the Tories - and oh yeah - the Guardian (that beacon of truth)

so those costs are wrong then ? i mean ill find it elsewhere if you want ? but thats some pretty clear things that are solely down to the tory govt .... and choices they made burning fire or not 

[steviewevie]

they have to go the extra mile to restore UKs economic credibility after Truss/Kwarteng's mini budget fuckup. It didn't need to be this bad. We can argue about the economic realities, but the fact is that budget spooked the markets and in the end resulted in the bank intervening, uturning the whole budget, a new chancellor and PM, and now a much more austere budget than is necessary to reassure these same markets. And the market isn't one thing that looks at a spreadsheet, it's billions of individual decisions based on the available data, kind of a beautiful sexy organic thing that gets neo-libs all jizzed, but now this sexy organic thing is in control, and govt feels they have to do everything possible and then a bit more to keep it sweet, as well as worry about things called people because apparently we still live in a democracy.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

so those costs are wrong then ? i mean ill find it elsewhere if you want ? but thats some pretty clear things that are solely down to the tory govt .... and choices they made burning fire or not 

I doubt there’s very little point in you doing so. You get that with a small amount of people online where you can provide them with evidence of something, data and reports from knowledgeable people yet they’ll just ignore or just scoff at you when you provide the information. Then try to attack you for daring to combat their point with evidence. 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Ozanne

[Crazyfool01]

Just now, Barry Fish said:

You, Stevie and Ozanne heavily supported sitting at home for two years costing the country BILLIONS

erm really ... ? i worked half the pandemic  in a supermarket probably servicing your online food order ... the other half I was at home not through any kind of choice but through the fact im vulnerable ( type 1 diabetes ) I took no pleasure being isolated inn fact it was fucking grim for me living alone .

 

4 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

The country demanded Brexit...  and most the country support us supporting Ukraine and not Russia...

not me Barry so maybe im allowed to be bitter 

 

5 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

The problem is - none of you want to lie in the beds you made.

Again i didnt make this bed 

[steviewevie]

Thread from Beth Rigby on what might see in budget...