Football 2022/23

[Punksnotdead]

12 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I'm not attacking him. I think he has got par results similar to Sven. I would keep him on because there isn't an obvious replacement.

For all your talk about achievement. You can't name a great victory during his reign, there hasn't been one. I don't think he is particularly tactically strong. I think he is a nice guy, doesn't fall out with player and good with the media. All important attributes, but in terms of attainment they are beating teams you would expect and then going out. I see it as a performance and you ask yourself is par good enough, maybe it is.

In 3 tournaments they have beaten the teams you would expect and lost 3 50/50 games when they have come across someone decent, although none of the 3 were world beaters. I'm not sure you can say losing 3 50/50 games is just luck. I think WC22 and Euro 20 were both there to be won. WC 18 they would likely have been slaughtered in the final. 

I think that's fair. He doesn't deserve to be criticised - but he also doesn't deserve to be lauded as one of the great managers!

[pink_triangle]

1 minute ago, Barry Fish said:

A manager doesn't have some magical solution to winning games.  You can only enable the best to come from the players and then its up to them.  The 3 50/50 games I can't think of anything I could spot where he could have done something different to the change the outcome.  Can you ?  really ? 

What I take heart from is I still think this England side has a lot of space to improve.  Another two years and England should be as strong if not stronger.  I feel we lack an out and out goal scorer - Kane is becoming an expensive luxury is some ways. Both as a squad - England are good and Southgate has proved (at least to me) he can enable the players to produce.

Yes I think particularly the Euro final was down to negative tactics. 2 of the 3 50/50 games England were in the lead. It's not down purely to the manager, but they can make those tactical changes that win the big games.

What surprised me today when I looked at the England team was man for man they were possibly better than France (in reality probably not much in it). The England bench was much stronger, which is why France only made 1 substitute. That is largely down to France being hard hit by injuries. However an injury hit France is an opportunity and you need to take the opportunities. I just find Southgate too conservative. Pulling off the best player in Saka, bringing on Mount and Sterling. I feel France would more fear Saka and Rashford.

[pink_triangle]

10 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

  I feel we lack an out and out goal scorer - Kane is becoming an expensive luxury is some ways. 

I feel Kane has come out on the losing side in a lot of the biggest games in his career. You can forget the penalty as everyone misses them. I just feel he has often failed to get the big goals when really needed in the big games. 

You look at the fact the likes of Wilson and Calvert Lewin being in recent squads to support the fact the forward options aren't great. I would however argue a lot of the better countries have the same issue. 

[WS_Jack_III]

Unforgivable that from Kane, he's an elite striker and he couldn't even hit the target from 12 yards. Really, really poor.

[pink_triangle]

11 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

I agree I would have gone for Rashford over Sterling.  I think Saka played great but was getting a bit leggy.  Do I think it would have really changed much not really ?
 

I love Saka. I wondered what the fuss was about until this season, but what a player. For all the hype about Bellingham I think Saka will be even better.

I rate Foden but thought today he didn't play great. I almost forgot he had played until I saw the BBC ratings.

[pink_triangle]

2 minutes ago, WS_Jack_III said:

Unforgivable that from Kane, he's an elite striker and he couldn't even hit the target from 12 yards. Really, really poor.

Many better players than Kane have done the same.

[WS_Jack_III]

2 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Many better players than Kane have done the same.

If you can't hit the target from there then there is something wrong. Bruno did it for Newcastle recently, shocking.

[pink_triangle]

5 minutes ago, WS_Jack_III said:

If you can't hit the target from there then there is something wrong. Bruno did it for Newcastle recently, shocking.

I would be more concerned that in 3 big games against Croatia, Italy and France he hasnt scored in open play. That's when you need your Forward to be the match winner.

[WS_Jack_III]

1 minute ago, pink_triangle said:

I would be more concerned that in 3 big games against Croatia, Italy and France he hasnt scored in open play. That's when you need your Forward to be the match winner.

He drops too deep, far too deep. Now he played great once we went behind, was like a man possessed but second half he was playing on the halfway line again. How can you get an equaliser back when your elite striker is on the halfway line?

[WS_Jack_III]

Just now, Barry Fish said:

I think his best days are behind him.  Simple as that really.

Seems that way, doing exactly what Rooney did, drifting backwards.

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, Punksnotdead said:

I think that's fair. He doesn't deserve to be criticised - but he also doesn't deserve to be lauded as one of the great managers!

I think Southgate benefits from some extent from the low expectations that came from the Hodgson era.

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, Barry Fish said:

I think its a problem position for us.  Kane has faded and Rashford is inconsistent...  No one really kicking down the door to take over.

Very few would say Giroud is a better player than Kane, but he gives a different option. Trouble is I can't see who is the England Giroud coming through. 

[Neil]

Harry kane, what a flop. 

[Neil]

38 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Mbappé, what a flop as well. 

Walker marked him out of the game 🙂 

must be shit to be bettered by walker. not the case if it was des walker.

[lost]

I don't think the top premiership clubs will be queuing up to take Southgate as manager when he eventually leaves.

[pink_triangle]

21 minutes ago, Neil said:

must be shit to be bettered by walker. not the case if it was des walker.

I think Kyle Walker is a good player. Not flashy, but very consistent.

[charlierc]

11 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

Due to his contract he has been playing 20 minutes per game, he is probably the freshest player there.

That probably does help, oui.

[charlierc]

11 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

I think England had uck. They have been lucky with injuries pre and during the tournament. In contrast to their opponents who have lost loads of players. The reason France only brought one one sub is they didn't really have anyone on the bench. With Morocco waiting and not a great opponent on the other half I think they blew it and don't get this glorious failure narrative.

While Southgate is undoubtedly a nice bloke. I think his results have been largely down to England getting better players at the same time as others have got worse (which is nothing to do with him) and a home tournament. Just like Sven he hasnt beaten anyone in a knockout that you wouldn't expect. I don't see from a tactical perspective what he brings, it was a world cup there to be won. He is lucky there is no obvious replacement.

I was thinking as much luck of the bracket, given most of the rest of the last 8 were beatable but France had the players and game management abilities to be able to win in a situation like the one they were in. That and clearly, you're lucks not exactly in if Kane overthought the second penalty and ended up giving Beckham an in-person re-enactment of his sky-high penalty against Portugal in Euro 2004.

A close game like that is decided on fine margins and little things, including luck - Maguire's header hitting the post was unlucky, for instance. But it is what it is. France's defence was shaky at times but they ultimately did just enough to not got penalised for it. I mean, fuck me, Theo Hernandez is a lucky boy given that was a real brain fade to shove over Mount for penalty two.

A cynic will say that England can't beat good teams at major tournaments but this was a different kind of issue - Croatia 2018 and Italy 2021 were games where England couldn't build on early control, even if the latter went to the lottery that is penalties, whereas this one was one decided by moments. It's not le smash and grab as France had two phases of control, but it wasn't like England were played off the park.

I'm not even sure who you'd replace Southgate with in all fairness. Timing doesn't exactly help given we're midway through the domestic season and a lot of clubs wouldn't be happy to have their boss prized out now.

[charlierc]

10 hours ago, WS_Jack_III said:

He drops too deep, far too deep. Now he played great once we went behind, was like a man possessed but second half he was playing on the halfway line again. How can you get an equaliser back when your elite striker is on the halfway line?

I wonder if Kane might make for a good CAM in a 4-2-3-1 tbf given he's quite good at dropping deep, linking play and feeding fast cut-inside types like Son at Spurs. Also drifts wide quite a lot from what I'd seen. There's moments when that style will win you games, but clearly, last night was not one of them. 

Though on this point I don't think Kane was the biggest problem. Imo Foden can play better than he did last night and is capable of being a player who can turn that drop-deep striker into goals while the midfield seemed less on it than they did against Senegal.

I wonder if the evolution of football tactics is starting to pivot back towards styles where the out-and-out central striker has got back in fashion. We've had a decade or so of attacking play moving towards attacking midfielders playing as false 9 strikers, teams relying on wingers cutting inside as a main goal threat or having a group of players that rotate positions across the front positions, but I wonder if the evolution of the game is pivoting back towards just having a central striker up top whose specialist subject is just beating the keeper. Obviously not everyone has a Haaland at their disposal, but I wonder if there is the search for more like that.

[lost]

10 minutes ago, charlierc said:

I'm not even sure who you'd replace Southgate with in all fairness. Timing doesn't exactly help given we're midway through the domestic season and a lot of clubs wouldn't be happy to have their boss prized out now.

I've seen Potch and Tutchel mention in the rumours. Tutchel in particular apparently likes London and needs another job for his work permit.

Wouldn't be surprised though if the FA stick with Southgate. He's more politician than manager which I guess the FA love for the England brand.

Edited December 11, 2022 by lost

[charlierc]

1 minute ago, lost said:

I've seen Potch and Tutchel mention in the rumours. Tutchel in particular apparently likes London and needs another job for his work permit.

Wouldn't be surprised though if the FA stick with Southgate. He's more politician than manager which I guess the FA love for the England brand.

I mean, I guess it depends on Southgate and whether he fancies another crack. He's under contract to Euro 2024 and has said he'll make a call either way. There's a scenario where he thinks that he can win Euro 2024 and likes the evolution enough to decide this is another crack, or there's a scenario where he decides six years enough as we've seen with the Brazil boss, who was planning to leave his job after this tournament even if they won the World Cup. Guess we'll find out one way or another.

[pink_triangle]

24 minutes ago, charlierc said:

I was thinking as much luck of the bracket, given most of the rest of the last 8 were beatable but France had the players and game management abilities to be able to win in a situation like the one they were in. That and clearly, you're lucks not exactly in if Kane overthought the second penalty and ended up giving Beckham an in-person re-enactment of his sky-high penalty against Portugal in Euro 2004.

A close game like that is decided on fine margins and little things, including luck - Maguire's header hitting the post was unlucky, for instance. But it is what it is. France's defence was shaky at times but they ultimately did just enough to not got penalised for it. I mean, fuck me, Theo Hernandez is a lucky boy given that was a real brain fade to shove over Mount for penalty two.

A cynic will say that England can't beat good teams at major tournaments but this was a different kind of issue - Croatia 2018 and Italy 2021 were games where England couldn't build on early control, even if the latter went to the lottery that is penalties, whereas this one was one decided by moments. It's not le smash and grab as France had two phases of control, but it wasn't like England were played off the park.

I'm not even sure who you'd replace Southgate with in all fairness. Timing doesn't exactly help given we're midway through the domestic season and a lot of clubs wouldn't be happy to have their boss prized out now.

It's swings and roundabouts, hard quarter, but easier semi. I just think England had France on the ropes around the 70 minute mark. France were wobbling and England had a stronger bench, you need to take your opportunities from that position. Donenech nearly won a world cup for France so you don't need to be a great manager to win at international level. I just feel Southgate can get too conservative and reactive. I think that could cost England in the Euros.

For all the talk about Saka (who was very good) to me the MOM was Griezmann. Not only for the performance, but for having brain/experience to work out exactly what he could get away with on a yellow card.

I think with both Southgate and Kane it's easy to say move on, the trouble is a lack of replacement.

[pink_triangle]

21 minutes ago, lost said:

I've seen Potch and Tutchel mention in the rumours. Tutchel in particular apparently likes London and needs another job for his work permit.

Wouldn't be surprised though if the FA stick with Southgate. He's more politician than manager which I guess the FA love for the England brand.

I don't think you can underestimate the importance of that political aspect. He is very good at the media stuff.

[pink_triangle]

19 minutes ago, charlierc said:

I mean, I guess it depends on Southgate and whether he fancies another crack. He's under contract to Euro 2024 and has said he'll make a call either way. There's a scenario where he thinks that he can win Euro 2024 and likes the evolution enough to decide this is another crack, or there's a scenario where he decides six years enough as we've seen with the Brazil boss, who was planning to leave his job after this tournament even if they won the World Cup. Guess we'll find out one way or another.

Unless he wants the easy life of a background role then I can't see him leaving. I don't see him getting a good premiership job, so he would be looking at the middle/bottom end premiership jobs where job security is very low.

The only thing is if he is thinking legacy then maybe it is the time to go. He now has a reputation as Englands second best manager without really having beaten anyone. He can keep that legacy or go on when he is probably as likely to diminish it as improve.

[charlierc]

47 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

It's swings and roundabouts, hard quarter, but easier semi. I just think England had France on the ropes around the 70 minute mark. France were wobbling and England had a stronger bench, you need to take your opportunities from that position. Donenech nearly won a world cup for France so you don't need to be a great manager to win at international level. I just feel Southgate can get too conservative and reactive. I think that could cost England in the Euros.

For all the talk about Saka (who was very good) to me the MOM was Griezmann. Not only for the performance, but for having brain/experience to work out exactly what he could get away with on a yellow card.

I think with both Southgate and Kane it's easy to say move on, the trouble is a lack of replacement.

I think it's just the nature of how it goes in a game as low-scoring as football. If someone in a white shirt had forced through a goal at that point, it would've been hard for France to recover, but it wasn't to be. There's questions tbf on how England defended the winning goal, given Griezmann got space to cross and Giroud was on his one when the cross came in (even with Maguire getting a slight touch on the way through), plus as said above, I think there were weak moments in midfield. 

I'd forgotten Domenech got France to the 2006 World Cup final tbf. Though that tournament seems to as much be the last act of the generation that won the 1998 tournament taking it by the balls and using their heads to lead (if Zidane, a bit too much) that when RD was left by himself to look after Euro 2008 and South Africa 2010, it all spectacularly fell to shit.

Many people call for simple solutions tbf - "Southgate Out" was said to the point of meaningless mantra during the Nation's League when England stunk the place out. I think he's done enough to serve out the contract. Whether that is the case is another matter. Euro 2024 could be an open field again given how many flawed teams were on display in the UEFA block at this World Cup. But I guess we won't know just yet.

Certainly, this was different imo to the last two. Partly as England never actually lead in Croatia 2018 or Italy 2021 and in both games missed chances to make it 2-0 before the other side were able to assert midfield control and win the contest. As we've said before, even games just go on a fine margin.