Football 2022/23

[pink_triangle]

6 minutes ago, charlierc said:

I

Many people call for simple solutions tbf - "Southgate Out" was said to the point of meaningless mantra during the Nation's League when England stunk the place out. I think he's done enough to serve out the contract. Whether that is the case is another matter. Euro 2024 could be an open field again given how many flawed teams were on display in the UEFA block at this World Cup. But I guess we won't know just yet.

No conclusions should be drawn on the nations league, it is a tournament fans and players don't give a crap about. I guess it's up to Southgate, if he wants it he will get the chance.

 

[Skip997]

Absolutely beautiful, could hardly think of a better way for England to go out, maybe a "slab head" own goal.

Yet again after all the hype England go out the first good team they meet.

[Punksnotdead]

Just watched the women's Manchester derby - have to say I enjoyed it more than any game in the world cup!

[Skip997]

1 hour ago, Barry Fish said:

Poor little bitter Scots man ? 

Very happy Irish man

Saturday night was great!

[thetime]

9 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

Dear lord - pathetic 🙂  Is your life that shit ?  😄 

He's a scouser, so yeah.

[charlierc]

On 12/11/2022 at 2:29 PM, Punksnotdead said:

Just watched the women's Manchester derby - have to say I enjoyed it more than any game in the world cup!

Tbf one of my favourite times being in a football game of late was the Women's Euro final in July. I'd been to two games before that so already had quite a good time but the final was something special.

[charlierc]

On 12/11/2022 at 11:20 AM, pink_triangle said:

Donenech nearly won a world cup for France so you don't need to be a great manager to win at international level.

Thinking about this discussion, in a point I didn't raise yesterday that I could've, Germany had a manager who won the treble with Bayern Munich while Spain's boss previously won a treble at Barcelona, so both are arguably very capable managers, and yet both had World Cups that fell really below their expectations and what something with their talent pools should be doing.

I guess there's a degree tbf of straight up tournament football being a much stricter judge, given all the work that goes into preparing a team for something like the World Cup can just be swept away if you fall face first out of the gate, as indeed happened to the Germans (very much because they couldn't finish against Japan, not this bizarre claim they were out due to being distracted by off-pitch political shenanigans).

[kaosmark2]

1 minute ago, charlierc said:

Thinking about this discussion, in a point I didn't raise yesterday that I could've, Germany had a manager who won the treble with Bayern Munich while Spain's boss previously won a treble at Barcelona, so both are arguably very capable managers, and yet both had World Cups that fell really below their expectations and what something with their talent pools should be doing.

I guess there's a degree tbf of straight up tournament football being a much stricter judge, given all the work that goes into preparing a team for something like the World Cup can just be swept away if you fall face first out of the gate, as indeed happened to the Germans (very much because they couldn't finish against Japan, not this bizarre claim they were out due to being distracted by off-pitch political shenanigans).

Who would look at Spain or Germany's squad and say they're potential world cup winners? I think both of those national teams are very obviously in transition, with talented young players who haven't yet got serious tournament experience (I'd include winning trophies with their clubs btw), and a few players lingering past their prime but where the replacement hasn't come through yet (Muller and Busquets in particular come to mind). 

To me, going into the tournament, there were a clear top 3, in France, Argentina, Brazil, and then a "best of the rest", of which England were one of the strongest. I think most people agreed Belgium were past it, Germany and Spain in transition, Portugal too committed to Ronaldo (and the game they played without him they looked like potential winners), Uruguay are imbalanced, the Netherlands haven't been in a tournament in yonks.

On the original point, I think managers of international teams' job is to balance player egos and club rivalries. From player reports (Ferdinand, Gerrard, Lampard come to mind), Sven and Capello didn't do that, Spain have had that problem except for the last 15 years, and Southgate's been much better at this for England. International and club management skills are different, in one, you have to work as effectively as possible with the players available and get them playing at their best, it's much more of a coach+selection job. Club managers get to impact the squad with transfers etc. I think ultimately, Southgate has the skills required to be a good (not exceptional) England manager, and not the skills to be a good club manager.

[pink_triangle]

15 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

Who would look at Spain or Germany's squad and say they're potential world cup winners? I think both of those national teams are very obviously in transition, with talented young players who haven't yet got serious tournament experience (I'd include winning trophies with their clubs btw), and a few players lingering past their prime but where the replacement hasn't come through yet (Muller and Busquets in particular come to mind). 

To me, going into the tournament, there were a clear top 3, in France, Argentina, Brazil, and then a "best of the rest", of which England were one of the strongest. I think most people agreed Belgium were past it, Germany and Spain in transition, Portugal too committed to Ronaldo (and the game they played without him they looked like potential winners), Uruguay are imbalanced, the Netherlands haven't been in a tournament in yonks.

On the original point, I think managers of international teams' job is to balance player egos and club rivalries. From player reports (Ferdinand, Gerrard, Lampard come to mind), Sven and Capello didn't do that, Spain have had that problem except for the last 15 years, and Southgate's been much better at this for England. International and club management skills are different, in one, you have to work as effectively as possible with the players available and get them playing at their best, it's much more of a coach+selection job. Club managers get to impact the squad with transfers etc. I think ultimately, Southgate has the skills required to be a good (not exceptional) England manager, and not the skills to be a good club manager.

I would argue that they are an easier group of players to manage. A good chunk of the England players are not competing for league titles/champions leagues and therefore maybe don't have the same ego. Even those who do at City and Liverpool like Walker, Henderson and Stones are quite low maintenance.  The City v Liverpool rivalry is sporting but not really a nasty rivalry.

[steviewevie]

Come on Croatia and Morocco. 🙏

[Punksnotdead]

6 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Come on Croatia and Morocco. 🙏

Come on Argentina and France 

[Skip997]

Really not too bothered. England have gone out, now the world cup starts.

Would be nice to see Morocco win though.

[charlierc]

17 hours ago, kaosmark2 said:

Who would look at Spain or Germany's squad and say they're potential world cup winners? I think both of those national teams are very obviously in transition, with talented young players who haven't yet got serious tournament experience (I'd include winning trophies with their clubs btw), and a few players lingering past their prime but where the replacement hasn't come through yet (Muller and Busquets in particular come to mind). 

To me, going into the tournament, there were a clear top 3, in France, Argentina, Brazil, and then a "best of the rest", of which England were one of the strongest. I think most people agreed Belgium were past it, Germany and Spain in transition, Portugal too committed to Ronaldo (and the game they played without him they looked like potential winners), Uruguay are imbalanced, the Netherlands haven't been in a tournament in yonks.

On the original point, I think managers of international teams' job is to balance player egos and club rivalries. From player reports (Ferdinand, Gerrard, Lampard come to mind), Sven and Capello didn't do that, Spain have had that problem except for the last 15 years, and Southgate's been much better at this for England. International and club management skills are different, in one, you have to work as effectively as possible with the players available and get them playing at their best, it's much more of a coach+selection job. Club managers get to impact the squad with transfers etc. I think ultimately, Southgate has the skills required to be a good (not exceptional) England manager, and not the skills to be a good club manager.

A few did look at Spain's squad pre-tournament and suggest they might be dark horses tbf, given they were in the semis at the Euros last year. But they really went off the boil after their 7-0 win on day one against Costa Rica.

But I do get the point. It sounded like the England team in the 2000-14 era was tricky to manage anyway given it was full of club-based cliques and supermassive egos, somehow not punctured even by some insipid performances at the 2006 World Cup or failing to reach Euro 2008. And agreed - there are some very different requirements between the two lanes. Success in one doesn't mean success in the other, which is why I wonder how well somebody like Guardiola or Mourinho would do managing a national team given they are specialist in the club sense.

[charlierc]

1 hour ago, pink_triangle said:

Even those who do at City and Liverpool like Walker, Henderson and Stones are quite low maintenance.  The City v Liverpool rivalry is sporting but not really a nasty rivalry.

That's true tbf. I remember after these two drew near the end of last season that a lot of pundits were complaining about it being a bloodless rivalry with little antagonism in games between them, which is just bizarre "football was better in my day" posturing.

Although saying that their meeting at Anfield a few months back got surprisingly spiky.

[pink_triangle]

14 minutes ago, charlierc said:

A few did look at Spain's squad pre-tournament and suggest they might be dark horses tbf, given they were in the semis at the Euros last year. But they really went off the boil after their 7-0 win on day one against Costa Rica.

 

It's small margins, Spain looked toothless going forward, but pretty solid in defence. Things go slightly different and they could be playing France.

[lost]

If I had to chose between the two underdogs in the semi's for who I wanted to win I'd go for Croatia tonight. Purely for that VAR call for the penalty Messi missed against Poland. Decisions like that are completely ruining the game and feed into the game is now fixed conspiracies.

 

[kaosmark2]

2 hours ago, pink_triangle said:

I would argue that they are an easier group of players to manage. A good chunk of the England players are not competing for league titles/champions leagues and therefore maybe don't have the same ego. Even those who do at City and Liverpool like Walker, Henderson and Stones are quite low maintenance.  The City v Liverpool rivalry is sporting but not really a nasty rivalry.

I'd agree they're probably easier to manage, but the reports of club cliques has been a problem for a lot of international teams. The fact it doesn't happen under Southgate is still something to credit him for imo.

I think if Southgate (as he's manages now) had been manager of the golden generation, we'd have seen a lot more of Owen Hargreaves and Joe Cole instead of the imbalanced midfield there was. I'm not saying he'd have made them winners, but I think there probably would have been an extra knockout win or two.

[steviewevie]

Wow Messi is so amazing. Etc.

[Punksnotdead]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Wow Messi is so amazing. Etc.

Well he is, isn't he?

Croatia might actually try to play some football now - they only ever do that when they're losing!

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, Punksnotdead said:

Well he is, isn't he?

Croatia might actually try to play some football now - they only ever do that when they're losing!

To be fair that 2nd goal wasn't bad.

[Neil]

10 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

To be fair that 2nd goal wasn't bad.

this^^^

🙂 🙂 

i'll keep that one in memory of my walking football mate paul who was killed by a hit and run driver last weekend. 😞 

[Neil]

3 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

The Messi factor 🙂

Another great goal. 

[steviewevie]

Ok, the third was pretty good too

 

[Crazyfool01]

Paris the place to be tonight ... hopefully it all passes peacefully ... come on Morocco 🙂 

[steviewevie]

COME ON MOROCCO!!!