Sustainability of the Festival?

[willgooneday]

Was going to post this in the 2023 Headliners thread but it's not really relevant.

 

With Copping's seem insistence to stick to hard rock acts as much as he can is anyone starting to get worried Download will go the way of MoR in the next 10-20 years. Obvious I have no idea what goes through the booking teams heads, but it's fun to have a guess? 

 

Just reviewing established headliners leaves a narrow grouping:

 

AC/DC (2010) - by all accounts despite drawing big ticket sales they were an absolute faff in 2010 to accommodate. Although if Metallica can get their two nights maybe Copping would do it for one last shot at them. 

Avenged Sevenfold (2014, 2018)

Aerosmith (2010, 2014, 2017) - maybe one last turn but seems like their farewell tour is off with Tyler's health issues

Audioslave (2003)

Black Sabbath (2005, 2012, 2016)

Biffy Clyro (2017, 2022) - surely shouldn't be booked again after Sunday this year? Better suited to TRNSMT or Reading

Def Leppard (2009, 2011, 2019)

Faith No More (2009) - similar to Feeder big but not big enough?

Feeder (2005) - not big enough anymore surely 

Guns N Roses (2006, 2018)

Iron Maiden (2003, 2007, 2013, 2016, 2022)

Linkin Park (2004, 2007. 2011, 2017) - obvious reasons

Lostprophets (2008,) - obvious reasons

KISS (2008, 2015, 2022)

Metallica (2004, 2006, 2012)

My Chemical Romance (2007) - regardless of popularity increasing 2007 probably makes them not want to go back.

Muse (2015) - not really doing actually rock music these days, much more poppy. 

Ozzy Osbourne (2018) -

The Offspring (2008)

The Prodigy (2012)

Rage Against the Machine (2010)

Rammstein (2013, 2016)

Slipknot (2009, 2013, 2015, 2019)

System of A Down (2005, 2011, 2017)

Tool (2006, 2019)

 

So that leaves you with a pool of 11 established headliners - which is not enough to fill 3 festivals, it looks like it's less a matter of if the festival wants to promote someone than having to but aside from going for more mainstream acts (which we can tell from the past few years isn't happening) who can you really promote.

 

Obvious Bring Me The Horizon being called up is a move in the right direction regardless of what you personally think of the band (they still have charting singles in the UK - how many rock bands can claim that these days) - so they're going to help shift to a younger demographic but maybe bumping up Korn or going after the likes of Green Day and adding more punk orientated bands might be the route forward? It's certainly seems a better direction of travel than starting to try and get a load of aging indie bands like The Killers / Arctic Monkeys etc 

[jump]

15 minutes ago, willgooneday said:

 

 

With Copping's seem insistence to stick to hard rock acts as much as he can

Aerosmith (2010, 2014, 2017) - maybe one last turn but seems like their farewell tour is off with Tyler's health issues

 

KISS (2008, 2015, 2022)

It's certainly seems a better direction of travel than starting to try and get a load of aging indie bands like The Killers / Arctic Monkeys etc 

Copping is not being instant, he can't book anything that's not metal as he's just a shit booker. He's lined up the likes of Blink 182 and Foo Fighters to headline in the past but they bailed before they were announced. Fuck it's taken him 10+ years to get Metallica back which is one of the most obvious bookings possible for Download.

Aerosmith have already called off the retirement on the last farewell run. What a joke.

KISS are also retiring but unlike Aerosmith they actually mean it thankfully.

The Killers and Artic Monkeys are both way out of Download's league even if they were metal.

Also when people talk about sustainability at festivals it's normally shit like no single use plastic rather than Download just books the same headliners over and over again.

[willgooneday]

22 minutes ago, jump said:

Copping is not being instant, he can't book anything that's not metal as he's just a shit booker. He's lined up the likes of Blink 182 and Foo Fighters to headline in the past but they bailed before they were announced. Fuck it's taken him 10+ years to get Metallica back which is one of the most obvious bookings possible for Download.

Aerosmith have already called off the retirement on the last farewell run. What a joke.

KISS are also retiring but unlike Aerosmith they actually mean it thankfully.

The Killers and Artic Monkeys are both way out of Download's league even if they were metal.

Also when people talk about sustainability at festivals it's normally shit like no single use plastic rather than Download just books the same headliners over and over again.

Future of the festival might have been a better, That still leaves you with 11 established headliners, 12 if we add BMTH after next year. Kiss retiring is good, hopefully Aerosmith don't come back on tour for a few years then. 

 

Maiden and Metallica have feasibly only got about 10-20 years left in the tank and I can never imagine Avenged Sevenfold / Bring Me the Horizon / Slipknot being enough to keep the gates open. 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by willgooneday

[BenG92]

1 hour ago, willgooneday said:

I can never imagine Avenged Sevenfold / Bring Me the Horizon / Slipknot being enough to keep the gates open. 

Not until they actually try it and find out. If bands the size of BMTH are cheaper than, say, GNR then they can afford to pad the rest of the festival out with bigger acts overall. We put way too much stock in ancient colossal acts to keep the lights on at Download when in reality, stronger runs of slightly smaller bands would do the trick nicely.

Rather than Maiden / Deftones / Shinedown / BLS you have something like Parkway / ADTR / Architects / Bullet - just pulling names out of a hat as an example of a strong four, don't read into it. But bring set times closer in line with one another, same with the poster, make it look more like a collection of decent names rather than three logos followed by whatever. BMTH don't need the two hours that Maiden play and that gives the undercard more time overall. 

Speaking of, I think people put too much emphasis on "band X will never accept being dropped down" when that's probably simply not true for a lot of them. As long as they're getting paid enough they'll do it, some frankly can't afford to be choosy (looking at you, Bullet).

[gabrielomachado]

Don't see why Muse, Biffy and MCR are ruled out as headliner options

IMO the headliner pool now looks like this:

Established headliners

Iron Maiden

Metallica

Slipknot

System Of A Down

Rammstein

Avenged Sevenfold

Biffy Clyro

Muse

Guns N'Roses

Def Leppard

My Chemical Romance

Big enough but never played

Green Day

Pearl Jam

Blink-182

Ready to get bump up

Bring Me The Horizon

Ghost

Five Finger Death Punch (?)

 

...and some other bands that i don't know if will tour again: KISS, Aerosmith, Ozzy/Sabbath, Foo Fighters, AC/DC along with once in a lifetime bookings like Tool and RATM

[Jericode]

I think I made a post somewhere on this forum four or five years ago pointing out pretty much exactly the same thing and all they've really done since is get Tool back who I had assumed at that point had retired.

[Andre91]

11 hours ago, gabrielomachado said:

Big enough but never played

Green Day

Pearl Jam

Blink-182

Scrub these off. If they haven't done it by now, they never will. 

[Andre91]

2010 was the turning point for Download. That's when they started to focus on the past and the beige. 

[BenG92]

Muse and MCR should be in the potential pool but I wouldn't be surprised if they're R+L instead.

Tool will 100% headline Download again whenever their next and probably final album drops in the next ~5 years, memes aside, but outside of that probably not.

Add Bon Jovi and Nine Inch Nails to the headliners who haven't played list.

[jump]

I always find these lists are abit boring as it's doubling down on the same stuff of major bands that have headlined other fests but Download aren't able to book, Download bands on the rise but the regulars will forever complain aren't big enough even when they are established as a big arena act or who have headlined before. Like when Soni bumped Biffy up or Download got Prodigy to headline they were really well received despite not being the exact thing people were expecting.

Not that I'm even a fan of some of these but why isn't Fall Out Boy, Queens Of The Stone Age, Nine Inch Nails, No Doubt, The Cure, Kings Of Leon etc being talked about at all as possible future headliners when Status Quo and Arctic Monkeys of all things have been seriously suggested. Some would probably flop but there's a rarity to them at Download that could make them unique enough to pull off a headline set just the once and it's not like Download regularly gets stadium acts anyway. The "they aren't big enough" and "that's a R&L band" crowd need to start lowering their expectations abit. It's started to become a self-fulfilling prophecy where no one new will ever headline or crowd won't be up for them like when they let Biffy cool off from being white hot so they couldn't establish themselves for the Download crowd.

[BenG92]

9 minutes ago, jump said:

The "they aren't big enough" and "that's a R&L band" crowd need to start lowering their expectations abit. 

It does baffle me that not many people consider bands like Fontaines D.C. - the biggest name in post punk right now - a Download band just because there's a lot of overlap with bucket hat lads. They wouldn't look out of place at Download next to IDLES, black midi and Amyl. Leeds can still have them between Jack Harlow and Wolf Alice, no harm done.

[jump]

24 minutes ago, BenG92 said:

It does baffle me that not many people consider bands like Fontaines D.C. - the biggest name in post punk right now - a Download band just because there's a lot of overlap with bucket hat lads. They wouldn't look out of place at Download next to IDLES, black midi and Amyl. Leeds can still have them between Jack Harlow and Wolf Alice, no harm done.

I've been told before on this forum Bring Me, While She Sleeps and Architects who are the three bands flying the flag of the current UK metal scene are R&L type bands so fuck knows what the chances are of getting stuff like Amyl or Slaves playing or if IDLES would come back now they are a name let alone Fontaines D.C.

Edited June 28, 2022 by jump

[Spiral_Low]

What it comes down to is the UK metal scene as a whole growing bands. They do it just fine in Europe but it's something we lack.

Download does have a big problem though. Spiritbox only being in 3rd stage was absolutely crazy. Hottest new band in metal right now. Should have been given a mid afternoon slot on mainstage. 

Halestorm they have done a good job with mind. And that band taking the Alter Bridge tour support slot is a great way for them to get more fans. Deffo think they should get a big main stage slot next year. 

So I think rather worry about headliner options right now (whilst there is still a fair few options) they need to focus on growing bands up to that level. 

[BenG92]

Copping specifically called out Spiritbox, Loathe, Wargasm, Cassyette, Sleep Token as "potential future headliners"... and then put only one of them on main stage. Same goes for Malevolence. He'll be doing them all dirty if they're not back in 2023 on main. 

[jump]

18 minutes ago, BenG92 said:

Copping specifically called out Spiritbox, Loathe, Wargasm, Cassyette, Sleep Token as "potential future headliners"... and then put only one of them on main stage. Same goes for Malevolence. He'll be doing them all dirty if they're not back in 2023 on main. 

Is he just naming names as he can't think of a realistic act that will headline one day? They are all new bands on an upward protectory and will get bigger (but there's bands like that who appear every year) rather than the type of shit hot act soon to becomes a headliner the same way Drake or Billie Eilish has done at other fests this year.

[BenG92]

3 minutes ago, jump said:

Is he just naming names as he can't think of a realistic act that will headline one day? They are all new bands on an upward protectory and will get bigger (but there's bands like that who appear every year) rather than the type of shit hot act soon to becomes a headliner the same way Drake or Billie Eilish has done at other fests this year.

Aye he also said that a Download headliner in 5 years might not even exist yet which is... true on paper but not likely for this festival.

Just seems to weird to specifically call out five bands and then stuff them away or put them opposite Volbeat and ADTR. 

[willgooneday]

2 minutes ago, BenG92 said:

Aye he also said that a Download headliner in 5 years might not even exist yet which is... true on paper but not likely for this festival.

Just seems to weird to specifically call out five bands and then stuff them away or put them opposite Volbeat and ADTR. 

That seems highly unlikely given how long it takes most acts to promote. This sounds more like a comment made to hype them up to try and sell tickets for this years festival - wouldn't be the first time.

I think he's massively overestimating the rock scenes about. 

Parkway Drive's new album goes down as well as their last then surely a possible Friday nighter (or Thursday if it sticks) in the next few years? 

- Another thing possible - if we're going to have bands on on Thursday then does the campsite village become a little redundant; could perhaps use it for a smaller festival within a festival focussing on a specific genre like pop-punk or hardcore punk or indie rock to try and diversify attendance? 

[BenG92]

1 minute ago, willgooneday said:

- Another thing possible - if we're going to have bands on on Thursday then does the campsite village become a little redundant; could perhaps use it for a smaller festival within a festival focussing on a specific genre like pop-punk or hardcore punk or indie rock to try and diversify attendance? 

There'll be no need to split the crowd like that, zero chance Thursday is a complete day of music anyway. I would bet your bands won't even start until like 3pm, bit like the weird AC/DC day in 2010. Still plenty of time to go round the village beforehand rather than just sitting at camp. 

[jump]

12 minutes ago, BenG92 said:

Aye he also said that a Download headliner in 5 years might not even exist yet which is... true on paper but not likely for this festival.

Just seems to weird to specifically call out five bands and then stuff them away or put them opposite Volbeat and ADTR. 

I've heard the a band doesn't exist but could headline in 5 years line from him before. What a load of bollocks, it took them over 5 years to get Bring Me back after changing their minds about them headlining Download.

There needs to be another rock festival to replace R&L and Soni just to generate headliners for Download at this rate.

[willgooneday]

9 minutes ago, jump said:

I've heard the a band doesn't exist but could headline in 5 years line from him before. What a load of bollocks, it took them over 5 years to get Bring Me back after changing their minds about them headlining Download.

There needs to be another rock festival to replace R&L and Soni just to generate headliners for Download at this rate.

There's a number of other rock festivals - the issue is size. The genre is obviously a lot smaller than it was in it's hey day which means you've a big difference between a Bloodstock / Slam Dunk headliner and a Download headliner in terms of crowd draw - there's a big difference your rock genre headliners at TRSNMT, Reading, 2000Trees in terms of suitability for Download. 

Short of resurrecting Sonisphere there's not really an avenue here for festival organisers. And if Sonisphere was ressurected it'd probably just take a lot of the crowd who go to Download because it's the UK's only major hard rock festival with it and give the festival an even bigger festival.

Edited June 28, 2022 by willgooneday

[willgooneday]

2 hours ago, jump said:

I always find these lists are abit boring as it's doubling down on the same stuff of major bands that have headlined other fests but Download aren't able to book, Download bands on the rise but the regulars will forever complain aren't big enough even when they are established as a big arena act or who have headlined before. Like when Soni bumped Biffy up or Download got Prodigy to headline they were really well received despite not being the exact thing people were expecting.

Not that I'm even a fan of some of these but why isn't Fall Out Boy, Queens Of The Stone Age, Nine Inch Nails, No Doubt, The Cure, Kings Of Leon etc being talked about at all as possible future headliners when Status Quo and Arctic Monkeys of all things have been seriously suggested. Some would probably flop but there's a rarity to them at Download that could make them unique enough to pull off a headline set just the once and it's not like Download regularly gets stadium acts anyway. The "they aren't big enough" and "that's a R&L band" crowd need to start lowering their expectations abit. It's started to become a self-fulfilling prophecy where no one new will ever headline or crowd won't be up for them like when they let Biffy cool off from being white hot so they couldn't establish themselves for the Download crowd.

Isn't the reason NIN haven't done it because Trent would play a load of deep cuts that would bore the pants off a festival crowd? It's the seem reason Glasto'd never book Bob Dylan any more. The Cure are surely too expensive? Fall Out Boy / QOTSA would be great though

[jump]

39 minutes ago, willgooneday said:

There's a number of other rock festivals - the issue is size. The genre is obviously a lot smaller than it was in it's hey day which means you've a big difference between a Bloodstock / Slam Dunk headliner and a Download headliner in terms of crowd draw - there's a big difference your rock genre headliners at TRSNMT, Reading, 2000Trees in terms of suitability for Download. 

Short of resurrecting Sonisphere there's not really an avenue here for festival organisers. And if Sonisphere was ressurected it'd probably just take a lot of the crowd who go to Download because it's the UK's only major hard rock festival with it and give the festival an even bigger festival.

Bollocks. If Download is only successful because it's the only big rock festival then that's not really a justification for it to BE the big rock festival.

There's clearly a market now that R&L is moving away from rock. On this year's Euro fest circuit where Metallica, Slipknot, Nightwish, Five Finger Death Punch, Gojira, Sabaton, The Offspring etc have no UK dates and there are acts like Slaves, Placebo, Weezer, Nine Inch Nails, Turnstile, Jack White, Green Day etc which Download can't seem to book then there's space for another festival. 

14 minutes ago, willgooneday said:

Isn't the reason NIN haven't done it because Trent would play a load of deep cuts that would bore the pants off a festival crowd? It's the seem reason Glasto'd never book Bob Dylan any more. The Cure are surely too expensive? Fall Out Boy / QOTSA would be great though

Nine Inch Nails just headlined Hellfest to a great reception. It's because of people like you would rather have Status Quo play!

Edited June 28, 2022 by jump

[BenG92]

NIN might be a 2nd stage head over here realistically but even still, they should be there. Would be an absolutely phenomenal alternative to the regulars. Or in a year where they've got 4 days to book NIN work as the "weakest" of the 4 mains. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by BenG92

[jump]

2 minutes ago, BenG92 said:

NIN might be a 2nd stage head over here realistically but even still, they should be there. Would be an absolutely phenomenal alternative to the regulars. 

I just don't reckon they would play at all.

Trent only seems to want to play if he fancies it nowadays and doesn't want to do massive arena tours so forcing himself onto a Download line up with Alestorm and Limp Bizkit would make him vomit. Hellfest had to make a line up that appealed to him first which is why Killing Joke and Ministry are specifically there in slots bigger than they would normally get and the last few shows in the UK have been for things like Robert Smith's Meltdown Festival. All Points East is where my money is on if he plays an UK fest again.

To be honest good on him, he's noticeably happier playing now unlike his misery set at Reading I saw.

[Spiral_Low]

2 hours ago, BenG92 said:

Copping specifically called out Spiritbox, Loathe, Wargasm, Cassyette, Sleep Token as "potential future headliners"... and then put only one of them on main stage. Same goes for Malevolence. He'll be doing them all dirty if they're not back in 2023 on main. 

Realistically though the only one of those with the international momentum to reach headliner level is Spiritbox.

1 hour ago, jump said:

I've heard the a band doesn't exist but could headline in 5 years line from him before. What a load of bollocks, it took them over 5 years to get Bring Me back after changing their minds about them headlining Download.

There needs to be another rock festival to replace R&L and Soni just to generate headliners for Download at this rate.

I've been saying for ages we need a day fest alongside Download. Like Knotfest UK was gonna be. Sometime late July/ Aug. 

1 hour ago, willgooneday said:

Isn't the reason NIN haven't done it because Trent would play a load of deep cuts that would bore the pants off a festival crowd? It's the seem reason Glasto'd never book Bob Dylan any more. The Cure are surely too expensive? Fall Out Boy / QOTSA would be great though

NIN would be awesome. The Cure would be awesome. 

46 minutes ago, BenG92 said:

NIN might be a 2nd stage head over here realistically but even still, they should be there. Would be an absolutely phenomenal alternative to the regulars. Or in a year where they've got 4 days to book NIN work as the "weakest" of the 4 mains. 

NIN could easily headline. They have a huge UK fanbase and plenty of others who would be curious. Amongst the average Download goer they are bigger than Biffy and Def Leppard for sure. Maybe not UK wide obvs but in terms of Download crowd NIN 100% are bigger than those 2 bands.