Sustainability of the Festival?

[BenG92]

12 minutes ago, Spiral_Low said:

NIN could easily headline. They have a huge UK fanbase and plenty of others who would be curious. Amongst the average Download goer they are bigger than Biffy and Def Leppard for sure. Maybe not UK wide obvs but in terms of Download crowd NIN 100% are bigger than those 2 bands. 

I would hope so, yeah. Just looking at their recent UK shows, Eden aside it was Academy venues, but that's probably because Trent wants more intimate shows. 

Biffy's 2022 crowd is going to be quite the comparison point for future reference I think, that footage of the side was damning. It looked like most of the park had gone back to camp to pack up.

[jump]

30 minutes ago, BenG92 said:

I would hope so, yeah. Just looking at their recent UK shows, Eden aside it was Academy venues, but that's probably because Trent wants more intimate shows. 

Biffy's 2022 crowd is going to be quite the comparison point for future reference I think, that footage of the side was damning. It looked like most of the park had gone back to camp to pack up.

Yeah, those UK NIN shows sold out fucking quick as they were way too small for them. I've seen them play at the O2 before, I would say they are more on the level between Wembley and the O2 though.

I found it odd the first night of the Eden Session wasn't sold out as I would have gone to that night too but all the hotels were booked already. I found out from my cab driver whilst I was there that apparently that date was NIN taking over from Lionel Richie who had pulled out and all the hotels had bookings from the Lionel fans but they didn't cancel at the time NIN were announced so a lot of fans were put off by not having anywhere to stay since it's such an isolated location.

Edited June 28, 2022 by jump

[BenG92]

4 minutes ago, jump said:

I found it odd the first night of the Eden Session wasn't sold out as I would have gone to that night too but all the hotels were booked already. I found out from my cab driver whilst I was there that apparently that date was NIN taking over from Lionel Richie who had pulled out and all the hotels had bookings from the Lionel fans but they didn't cancel at the time NIN were announced so a lot of fans were put off but not having anywhere to stay since it's such an isolated location.

That's what I heard from people, that or they didn't even attempt to get tickets because they thought it'd be impossible (I was in that camp). 

NIN with a Placebo sub would be fantastic 

[willgooneday]

43 minutes ago, BenG92 said:

I would hope so, yeah. Just looking at their recent UK shows, Eden aside it was Academy venues, but that's probably because Trent wants more intimate shows. 

Biffy's 2022 crowd is going to be quite the comparison point for future reference I think, that footage of the side was damning. It looked like most of the park had gone back to camp to pack up.

Does anyone have some still photos of it compared to Tool which was also relatively quiet. Or any other headliners. Maybe Sunday isn't a big deal for people anymore so there gonna have to book a more exciting act? 

 

Biffy are kind of screwed by over exposure at this point as . They were headlining T in the Park in 2014 and have played almost every UK fest going since then. maybe they need a few years away.

 

Foo Fighters are the band Download so clearly need to book but obviously that may be derailed by Taylor's death  - yes a lot of hardcore MoR types won't be overjoyed by it but most casuals will love it and they'd surely draw some huge day ticket numbers. As a statement of intent for the future of the festival it's a no-brainer. 

[BenG92]

1 minute ago, willgooneday said:

Does anyone have some still photos of it compared to Tool which was also relatively quiet. Or any other headliners. Maybe Sunday isn't a big deal for people anymore so there gonna have to book a more exciting act? 

Biffy are kind of screwed by over exposure at this point as . They were headlining T in the Park in 2014 and have played almost every UK fest going since then. maybe they need a few years away.

 

Been mentioned a lot but Tool is a different story, boatloads of us went to Download literally just to see Tool who hadn't played England in 13 years. I chatted to tons of people in Tool hoodies who said the same, Slipknot was just a nice bonus. Biffy play all the time as you say so I imagine the dead crowd was just people not caring - hell, they announced a tour with Architects pretty soon after for £66. Very glad I didn't do Download this year after seeing that and Volbeat tickets go on sale tomorrow.

[willgooneday]

4 minutes ago, BenG92 said:

Been mentioned a lot but Tool is a different story, boatloads of us went to Download literally just to see Tool who hadn't played England in 13 years. I chatted to tons of people in Tool hoodies who said the same, Slipknot was just a nice bonus. Biffy play all the time as you say so I imagine the dead crowd was just people not caring - hell, they announced a tour with Architects pretty soon after for £66. Very glad I didn't do Download this year after seeing that and Volbeat tickets go on sale tomorrow.

Not having seeing Maiden before would have been the only thing to get me there this year tbh but wasn't to be.

 

2018 was amazing but 2019 felt much harder work for me. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by willgooneday

[BenG92]

Looking at Ozzy 2018 he's already pretty packed out near the start. Biffy were dead halfway through their set and eventually everyone realised they could just fill up the sides. So not a Sunday problem I don't think.

Not ragging on Biffy, I have a ticket for the next tour, just surprising to see quite how empty it was. 

[Spiral_Low]

1 hour ago, BenG92 said:

That's what I heard from people, that or they didn't even attempt to get tickets because they thought it'd be impossible (I was in that camp). 

NIN with a Placebo sub would be fantastic 

NIN with Placebo would be absolutely spot on!

I wanted to go to Eden but didn't because of associated hotel and travel costs (if I drove I would of 😕 ). 

In regards to Tool - it wasn't quite so I don't really get people saying it was? Like alot went to see Slayer and then caught the second half of Tool so maybe that's what people are judging on? As you pointed out there was alot of us hardcore Tool fans there and many went just for Tool. Like yeah it wasn't absolutely rammed like Slipknot but still had loads watching, but they are a different kinda band so many were chilling out on the hill I guess 

[BenG92]

Just now, Spiral_Low said:

In regards to Tool - it wasn't quite so I don't really get people saying it was? Like alot went to see Slayer and then caught the second half of Tool so maybe that's what people are judging on? As you pointed out there was alot of us hardcore Tool fans there and many went just for Tool. Like yeah it wasn't absolutely rammed like Slipknot but still had loads watching, but they are a different kinda band so many were chilling out on the hill I guess 

Slayer was a massive part of it too yeah. My mate wasn't best pleased that we left partway through their last ever show but he couldn't argue after I told him I was only going DL for Tool if he wanted to tag along 😂 horrible clash but I'll take horrible clashes over Iron Maiden saying "it's us or your tent" 

[jump]

5 minutes ago, BenG92 said:

Slayer was a massive part of it too yeah. My mate wasn't best pleased that we left partway through their last ever show but he couldn't argue after I told him I was only going DL for Tool if he wanted to tag along 😂 horrible clash but I'll take horrible clashes over Iron Maiden saying "it's us or your tent" 

Of all the years to actually have the second and main stage headliners clash they chose that one. They should have sacked off Def Leppard and just had Slayer headline but with a big sub. Yes they aren't big enough but neither are Def Leppard!

[justanothername]

3 hours ago, willgooneday said:

Isn't the reason NIN haven't done it because Trent would play a load of deep cuts that would bore the pants off a festival crowd? It's the seem reason Glasto'd never book Bob Dylan any more. The Cure are surely too expensive? Fall Out Boy / QOTSA would be great though

Not too sure on The Cure being too expensive as their tour this year is very reasonably priced. It was like 60 quid for standing including fees. Anyways if they can afford to splash out on bands like GnR they can certainly afford The Cure. Not sure if they'd be a great fit but say a day like The Cure subbed by Deftones would be brilliant.

59 minutes ago, willgooneday said:

Foo Fighters are the band Download so clearly need to book but obviously that may be derailed by Taylor's death  - yes a lot of hardcore MoR types won't be overjoyed by it but most casuals will love it and they'd surely draw some huge day ticket numbers. As a statement of intent for the future of the festival it's a no-brainer. 

Out of all the bands that could have headlined and haven't Foos have got to be the most requested but there is clearly a reason why they haven't played and I'm guessing it's not because Download don't want them.

[BenG92]

7 minutes ago, jump said:

Of all the years to actually have the second and main stage headliners clash they chose that one. They should have sacked off Def Leppard and just had Slayer headline but with a big sub. Yes they aren't big enough but neither are Def Leppard!

Slayer are too modern for DL fans though 🤪

[willgooneday]

13 minutes ago, jump said:

Of all the years to actually have the second and main stage headliners clash they chose that one. They should have sacked off Def Leppard and just had Slayer headline but with a big sub. Yes they aren't big enough but neither are Def Leppard!

You also had Enter Shikari in a tent doing the gig of their lives clashing with the beginning of tool - so I ended up picking Shikari to watch from the back then join the mainstage initially intending to leave early for Tool, think me and a few thousand others were so entranced we forgot to leave almost walked in a straight line between the two as soon as Shikari finished. Not sure how much of Tool I missed but must have been a fair bit. 

 

Slayer should have deffo been a sub at least.

Edited June 28, 2022 by willgooneday

[Spiral_Low]

13 minutes ago, jump said:

Of all the years to actually have the second and main stage headliners clash they chose that one. They should have sacked off Def Leppard and just had Slayer headline but with a big sub. Yes they aren't big enough but neither are Def Leppard!

Aye that woulda made so much more sense. Also they clashed Dream Theater with Smashing Pumpkin's and Anthrax with LOG - utterly bizarre!!! 

[NorthernSoul52]

There's been some spectacularly strange clashes over the years.

There's possibly an argument to be made that Download may simply have to... downscale? Try lowering prices with a smaller attendance, chop to three stages... it's a spitball idea, but who knows.

Volbeat have just locked an arena tour. Would argue any metal act outright topping an arena bill these days is worthy of a shot, given how much new blood is needed atop the bill.

[jump]

20 minutes ago, NorthernSoul52 said:

There's been some spectacularly strange clashes over the years.

There's possibly an argument to be made that Download may simply have to... downscale? Try lowering prices with a smaller attendance, chop to three stages... it's a spitball idea, but who knows.

Volbeat have just locked an arena tour. Would argue any metal act outright topping an arena bill these days is worthy of a shot, given how much new blood is needed atop the bill.

The issue isn’t really metal is dead though as there’s a lot of metal bands playing arenas both new and old. The issue is Downloaders bitch about the idea of anything that isn’t the equal of Metallica or Guns n Roses being made a headliner leaving the rather shallow pool it now has.

[NorthernSoul52]

2 minutes ago, jump said:

The issue isn’t really metal is dead though as there’s a lot of metal bands playing arenas both new and old. The issue is Downloaders bitch about the idea of anything that isn’t the equal of Metallica or Guns n Roses being made a headliner leaving the rather shallow pool it now has.

Absolutely. Scaling down the festival might just be the way to go if they don't think they can sell it.

[willgooneday]

Just now, jump said:

The issue isn’t really metal is dead though as there’s a lot of metal bands playing arenas both new and old. The issue is Downloaders bitch about the idea of anything that isn’t the equal of Metallica or Guns n Roses being made a headliner leaving the rather shallow pool it now has.

I don't think the general Downloader gives a fuck whose playing the other nights if you get one band on Metallica's level yeah it's nice if you get two like in 2018 with Ozzy and GNR  - complaints about A7X were pretty sparse and they drew a decent crowd.

Slipknot have surely been elevated to that category now as well 

1 minute ago, NorthernSoul52 said:

Absolutely. Scaling down the festival might just be the way to go if they don't think they can sell it.

Instead of scaling down the festival - build up the acts. There does seem to be an element of trying to get the biggest acts you can each year with Download - if you have Metallica, Guns N Roses, AC/DC, Slipknot, Aerosmith Rammstein, RATM you can surely afford to bump a sub style/other headliner up such as:

 

A Day to Remember / Parkway Drive / Architects / Five Finger Death Punch / Korn / Machine Head / Frank Carter / BMTH / Alter Bridge / Judas Priest / Halestorm / Nightwish. 

 

Looks like this year we have Slipknot and Metallica which obvious gives a perfect option to bump up a band like BMTH, hopefully 2024 gives a chance to get some others off that list climbing up rather than looking off to pop rock. 

[justanothername]

A big thing that sticks in my mind is why go to Download over any other of its competitors? For metal you've got Bloodstock, for fresh rock acts you've got 2000trees, for hardcore you've got Outbreak, for the weirder stuff you've got ArcTanGent, for the more extreme stuff you've got Damnation, for old school punk you've got Rebellion, for kerrang artists you've got Slam Dunk and even the denim dinosaurs have got Ramblin Man. 

I know that Download draws bigger names but for most if not all of those festivals have been growing loads as Download just seems to stagnate. Doesn't seem like it'll be long until these festivals catch up.

[justanothername]

44 minutes ago, NorthernSoul52 said:

There's been some spectacularly strange clashes over the years.

There's possibly an argument to be made that Download may simply have to... downscale? Try lowering prices with a smaller attendance, chop to three stages... it's a spitball idea, but who knows.

Volbeat have just locked an arena tour. Would argue any metal act outright topping an arena bill these days is worthy of a shot, given how much new blood is needed atop the bill.

Honestly I feel like Download has been terrified of clashes recently. 2 of the 3 headliners only had clashes with the Dogtooth stage and the other didn't have any one clash with them. I feel like they need to offer more choices to punters. If Funeral for a Friend clashed with Iron Maiden I doubt many people would have complained. It would also allow one or two more bands to play on the other stages earlier on the day. Heck, I even think adding an extra stage would be better. Allow more choice for punters as a lot of the time I look at clashfinders and find I have large gaps of nothing. I feel like if Download does downsize it'll be the start of the end as competitors start to take over.

[Andre91]

1 hour ago, justanothername said:

Not too sure on The Cure being too expensive as their tour this year is very reasonably priced. It was like 60 quid for standing including fees. Anyways if they can afford to splash out on bands like GnR they can certainly afford The Cure. Not sure if they'd be a great fit but say a day like The Cure subbed by Deftones would be brilliant.

Out of all the bands that could have headlined and haven't Foos have got to be the most requested but there is clearly a reason why they haven't played and I'm guessing it's not because Download don't want them.

Dave played with Them Crooked Vultures in 2010 and wasn’t deemed worthy enough to play the same stage as AC/DC and was shoved on a smaller stage to the side and then got booed and heckled by the crowd throughout the set. I’m sure he looks back on his first experience at Donington really fondly. Why bother he can take the boys to Reading and get a hero’s welcome every single time? 

[BenG92]

Yeah I don't want them to downsize, makes it look like they're giving up. Cutting stages/bands means more reliance on safety net bands and less adventure. It'll kill the festival off even quicker.

Keep it at 4 days and use the Thursday to push your new headliners in. Parkway, Ghost, Korn all the usual names mentioned. Below them push a load of exciting rising bands on one stage only, it's not like the punters are going to pay for that extra day and then spend it swanning around the village paying £10 to go on ferris wheels. Well, some will, but they're dopes. 

[NorthernSoul52]

7 minutes ago, justanothername said:

Honestly I feel like Download has been terrified of clashes recently. 2 of the 3 headliners only had clashes with the Dogtooth stage and the other didn't have any one clash with them. I feel like they need to offer more choices to punters. If Funeral for a Friend clashed with Iron Maiden I doubt many people would have complained. It would also allow one or two more bands to play on the other stages earlier on the day. Heck, I even think adding an extra stage would be better. Allow more choice for punters as a lot of the time I look at clashfinders and find I have large gaps of nothing. I feel like if Download does downsize it'll be the start of the end as competitors start to take over.

That's the fear unfortunately. Also why I'm not in charge of running a festival!

Ghost and Parkway Drive both deserve a shot, to me at least. Think if you could get away with blooding a new headliner each year now, preferably on the Friday, with a big veteran plonked on the Sunday, then you're ensuring a high note finish each time around.

Ghost on the Friday, My Chemical Romance on the Saturday, Metallica on the Sunday? Would that float the boat, so to speak?

[willgooneday]

52 minutes ago, Andre91 said:

Dave played with Them Crooked Vultures in 2010 and wasn’t deemed worthy enough to play the same stage as AC/DC and was shoved on a smaller stage to the side and then got booed and heckled by the crowd throughout the set. I’m sure he looks back on his first experience at Donington really fondly. Why bother he can take the boys to Reading and get a hero’s welcome every single time? 

Or Glastonbury where he'll at least be appreciated - although I'd not be utterly surprised if we get a Them Crooked Vultures album in the next few years and Foos take a break. Probably a similar reason why QOTSA haven't been back. Although most of the bands that we reckon will never play Download for these reasons like Foos/Green Day etc have paid the foreign ones recently so there's hope. 

The festival needs to show it's moved on from those days - book Pearl Jam (who expressed an interest a few years ago iirc and probably would do it)  as a headliner and have it go down well any you open a door for your Foos etc. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by willgooneday

[willgooneday]

46 minutes ago, NorthernSoul52 said:

That's the fear unfortunately. Also why I'm not in charge of running a festival!

Ghost and Parkway Drive both deserve a shot, to me at least. Think if you could get away with blooding a new headliner each year now, preferably on the Friday, with a big veteran plonked on the Sunday, then you're ensuring a high note finish each time around.

Ghost on the Friday, My Chemical Romance on the Saturday, Metallica on the Sunday? Would that float the boat, so to speak?

I can't see MCR ever playing Download again - yes 2007 is a long time ago but.