Sustainability of the Festival?

[BenG92]

15 minutes ago, Spiral_Low said:

Still think you are all focusing way too much on headliners. The way the festival sustains itself is by helping grow bands to fill the big slots, be it headliner, sub, third or whatever. And they need to start lower down on bill first.

Personally I think they need to utilize main stage mid afternoon slots more. Put bands like Spiritbox and Jinjer on like 5th and 6th on main stage. Also have bands like Bloodywood and Zeal & Ardor on early. These are all bands on the up atm that appeal to a metal crowd and some of the rock crowd too. Showcase the talent, help them grow, and they could be filling big slots in the future.

And there's new bands like Heriot and Ithaca emerging - don't just tuck them away on 4th stage, give them slots on 2nd even if it's opening or whatever. 

Thing is headliners are always gonna be what a lot of people make their decisions on. Every year I look at a Download with the same rotated shit it completely puts me off because I know that's where a lot of my ticket money is going and I'm just not interested, and they're often so reluctant to put anyone opposite on 2nd properly that I know it's likely either that headliner or my tent. If I saw like, Machine Head and NIN at the top I'd actually be excited for once

But yeah you're absolutely right on the rest, as I said above Copping named 5 bands who he sees as potential future headliners and then tucked 4 of them on other stages. Ridiculous. 

[jump]

25 minutes ago, Spiral_Low said:

Still think you are all focusing way too much on headliners. The way the festival sustains itself is by helping grow bands to fill the big slots, be it headliner, sub, third or whatever. And they need to start lower down on bill first.

Personally I think they need to utilize main stage mid afternoon slots more. Put bands like Spiritbox and Jinjer on like 5th and 6th on main stage. Also have bands like Bloodywood and Zeal & Ardor on early. These are all bands on the up atm that appeal to a metal crowd and some of the rock crowd too. Showcase the talent, help them grow, and they could be filling big slots in the future.

And there's new bands like Heriot and Ithaca emerging - don't just tuck them away on 4th stage, give them slots on 2nd even if it's opening or whatever. 

Oh I completely agree.

My main issue with Download is that it is mainstage top of the bill oriented rather a full day of fun. One of the oldest festival booker tricks is to fill the lower end of the stages with new/upcoming bands so it seems stronger. Like Wayward Sons are never gonna be much bigger than they are but a band that is of similar size to them at that moment they are booked like Bob Vylan, Hot Milk, Bleed From Within or whoever that are being talked about in general then it's a more appealing line up without having to spend more on bigger acts.

[willgooneday]

50 minutes ago, Spiral_Low said:

Still think you are all focusing way too much on headliners. The way the festival sustains itself is by helping grow bands to fill the big slots, be it headliner, sub, third or whatever. And they need to start lower down on bill first.

Personally I think they need to utilize main stage mid afternoon slots more. Put bands like Spiritbox and Jinjer on like 5th and 6th on main stage. Also have bands like Bloodywood and Zeal & Ardor on early. These are all bands on the up atm that appeal to a metal crowd and some of the rock crowd too. Showcase the talent, help them grow, and they could be filling big slots in the future.

And there's new bands like Heriot and Ithaca emerging - don't just tuck them away on 4th stage, give them slots on 2nd even if it's opening or whatever. 

We're focussing on headliners because headliners sell tickets.

 

Iron Maiden / Metallica / Slipknot is always going to outsell Ghost / Parkway Drive / Architects but that may not be the case in another ten years and the 80-year olds are going to need to get used to other headliners, it's going to be less of a adjustment if you have a few years with one of those bands than Metallica and Maiden doing a farewell tour at the same time and the next year being the latter of those two line-ups. 

 

Someone who was 18 when Iowa came out is now 40.  If there you're newest headliner you're really cutting down on the appeal to younger fans. FFDP / Ghost / Architects / Parkway Drive / BMTH etc are all massive bands in their own right and the Slipknot and the Slipknot / Linkin Park generation should surely be more adaptable to that change? 

 

Of those Ghost are probably your biggest bet - with playing arenas - and if you're talking about Stage shows they are incredible for it. My only question mark would be if a sunny summers night would be an issue for them over a dark  arena. 

 

FFDP haven't played the UK since pre-Covid, so they might do a Tool and sell a load of tickets in their own right and it's probably easier for them to set up a day to do Download than organise a UK tour. 

 

[jump]

19 minutes ago, willgooneday said:

We're focussing on headliners because headliners sell tickets.

To an extent but festivals can sell tixs even with shit headliners as long as it has a strong undercard as well as a strong headliner with a shit undercard can also put people off from buying tixs. A good line up is far, FAR greater than the sum of it's parts as well as having foresight. A band on the middle of the card that smashes it means next time they play the fest they seem like a bigger band despite not getting bigger.

Download booking loads of shit throughout the day has put me off from it now.

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by jump

[justanothername]

1 hour ago, Spiral_Low said:

Still think you are all focusing way too much on headliners. The way the festival sustains itself is by helping grow bands to fill the big slots, be it headliner, sub, third or whatever. And they need to start lower down on bill first.

Personally I think they need to utilize main stage mid afternoon slots more. Put bands like Spiritbox and Jinjer on like 5th and 6th on main stage. Also have bands like Bloodywood and Zeal & Ardor on early. These are all bands on the up atm that appeal to a metal crowd and some of the rock crowd too. Showcase the talent, help them grow, and they could be filling big slots in the future.

And there's new bands like Heriot and Ithaca emerging - don't just tuck them away on 4th stage, give them slots on 2nd even if it's opening or whatever. 

Maybe but there has been plenty of comments on here that generally the mainstage bookings are really lacking of any new talent and not to mention that headliners are basically the only main advantage Download now over it's competitors.

Edited June 29, 2022 by justanothername

[BenG92]

Yeah I think we focus on headliners so much because Download do, and we know they will continue to

I'd go for a FFDP / Parkway / Ghost trio in 2024 if it had a good undercard but it would probably simply not shift the tickets needed. The reality is more likely to be something like Ghost / SOAD / GNR or whatever

[willgooneday]

Ok so if we accept that headliners are moving away from bands who play stadiums for rock festivals to bands who sell out arenas - here's a list of bands who've played the 02 arena in London or the Manchester Arena since 2018 and could be considered remotely Download type bands. 

 

Alice Cooper
Alter Bridge
Arcade Fire
Biffy Clyro
Billy Idol
Black Stone Cherry
Bring Me the Horizon
Deep Purple
Def Leppard
Eagles
Fall Out Boy
Ghost
Gorrillaz
Hollywood Vampires
Iron Maiden
Killswitch Engage
KISS
Machine Head
Mark Knopfler
Massive Attack
mewithoutYou / Paramore
Muse
Nickleback
Nightwish
Ozzy Osbourne
Panic at the Disco
Parkway Drive
Pearl Jam
Queen - Adam Lambert
Royal Blood
Slayer
Slipknot
The Darkness
The Offspring
Thirty Seconds to Mars
Tool / Brass Against
Whitesnake
Within Temptation & Evanescence

[Spiral_Low]

2 hours ago, BenG92 said:

Thing is headliners are always gonna be what a lot of people make their decisions on. Every year I look at a Download with the same rotated shit it completely puts me off because I know that's where a lot of my ticket money is going and I'm just not interested, and they're often so reluctant to put anyone opposite on 2nd properly that I know it's likely either that headliner or my tent. If I saw like, Machine Head and NIN at the top I'd actually be excited for once

But yeah you're absolutely right on the rest, as I said above Copping named 5 bands who he sees as potential future headliners and then tucked 4 of them on other stages. Ridiculous. 

 

1 hour ago, willgooneday said:

We're focussing on headliners because headliners sell tickets.

 

Iron Maiden / Metallica / Slipknot is always going to outsell Ghost / Parkway Drive / Architects but that may not be the case in another ten years and the 80-year olds are going to need to get used to other headliners, it's going to be less of a adjustment if you have a few years with one of those bands than Metallica and Maiden doing a farewell tour at the same time and the next year being the latter of those two line-ups. 

 

Someone who was 18 when Iowa came out is now 40.  If there you're newest headliner you're really cutting down on the appeal to younger fans. FFDP / Ghost / Architects / Parkway Drive / BMTH etc are all massive bands in their own right and the Slipknot and the Slipknot / Linkin Park generation should surely be more adaptable to that change? 

 

Of those Ghost are probably your biggest bet - with playing arenas - and if you're talking about Stage shows they are incredible for it. My only question mark would be if a sunny summers night would be an issue for them over a dark  arena. 

 

FFDP haven't played the UK since pre-Covid, so they might do a Tool and sell a load of tickets in their own right and it's probably easier for them to set up a day to do Download than organise a UK tour. 

 

In response to both comments -

1st - long term, if Download wants new headliners, they need to get bands to the level of being so. They have a fair few bands that can headline and attract a crowd atm. Pearl Jam and NIN mentioned as 2 that haven't yet also. But in 10 years time? They need to get bands like I mentioned to get big. FFDP honestly make me laugh everyone they are mentioned, on a big downwards curve. 

2 - it's not just headliners that sell tickets. Undercard is really important and many people go based on that as much as headliners. I suspect many take approach I do - if there's one headline I like plus a great undercard, worth it. If one headliner I like but only a few bands I wanna see elsewhere on bill (like this year) I say no and look elsewhere. 

1 hour ago, jump said:

To an extent but festivals can sell tixs even with shit headliners as long as it has a strong undercard as well as a strong headliner with a shit undercard can also put people off from buying tixs. A good line up is far, FAR greater than the sum of it's parts as well as having foresight. A band on the middle of the card that smashes it means next time they play the fest they seem like a bigger band despite not getting bigger.

Download booking loads of shit throughout the day has put me off from it now.

 

Exactly.

[jump]

It's mental people keep going on about how Download needs "big" headliners like Metallica who haven't played in 10 years so Bring Me or Ghost wont do when Def Leppard have headlined three times in the space of 10 years! 

29 minutes ago, willgooneday said:

Ok so if we accept that headliners are moving away from bands who play stadiums for rock festivals to bands who sell out arenas - here's a list of bands who've played the 02 arena in London or the Manchester Arena since 2018 and could be considered remotely Download type bands. 

 

Alice Cooper
Alter Bridge
Arcade Fire
Biffy Clyro
Billy Idol
Black Stone Cherry
Bring Me the Horizon
Deep Purple
Def Leppard
Eagles
Fall Out Boy
Ghost
Gorrillaz
Hollywood Vampires
Iron Maiden
Killswitch Engage
KISS
Machine Head
Mark Knopfler
Massive Attack
mewithoutYou / Paramore
Muse
Nickleback
Nightwish
Ozzy Osbourne
Panic at the Disco
Parkway Drive
Pearl Jam
Queen - Adam Lambert
Royal Blood
Slayer
Slipknot
The Darkness
The Offspring
Thirty Seconds to Mars
Tool / Brass Against
Whitesnake
Within Temptation & Evanescence

So Massive Attack, Brass Against and Gorillaz to headline Download and save the festival!! 

Why are you including the support bands and bands that have broke up? Killswitch and The Darkness supporting other people doesn't mean they sold out the O2 arena. Mark Knopfler and Slayer have called it quits and Slayer was at Wembley, not the O2.

Edited June 29, 2022 by jump

[BenG92]

2 minutes ago, Spiral_Low said:

In response to both comments -

1st - long term, if Download wants new headliners, they need to get bands to the level of being so. They have a fair few bands that can headline and attract a crowd atm. Pearl Jam and NIN mentioned as 2 that haven't yet also. But in 10 years time? They need to get bands like I mentioned to get big. FFDP honestly make me laugh everyone they are mentioned, on a big downwards curve. 

2 - it's not just headliners that sell tickets. Undercard is really important and many people go based on that as much as headliners. I suspect many take approach I do - if there's one headline I like plus a great undercard, worth it. If one headliner I like but only a few bands I wanna see elsewhere on bill (like this year) I say no and look elsewhere. 

Yeah I don't disagree with you on the undercard, I just think we can't ignore the headliner situation either. We can all name tons of suitable ones but year after year they are never on the bill, that's the issue for me. I don't even care about them being as big as the current pile as long as they were fresh. Machine Head (who I can see for less than Biffy) doing the huge free rein set that they want to see is so much more interesting than Iron Maiden yet again.

Interestingly on the undercard, 2022's three main stage subs were statistically the 3 most common undercard bands to play Download. '22 was the "safest" year they've ever done by that metric. Not to mention Korn should 110% be headliners by now.

[jump]

45 minutes ago, BenG92 said:

Not to mention Korn should 110% be headliners by now.

If KoRn took a long enough break away from the fest they would be a headliner upon their return imo. I think it's tied between KoRn and Biffy as the band that has played Download the most but as they are playing so often it's made the punters too accustomed to them not headlining to accept them. It would do wonders for them instead of playing Download on a new album to miss Download completely and do a full proper tour which they haven't done since that co-headline thing with Limp Bizkit ages ago.

Speaking of it's really shocking that a band that has played Download so many times like Biffy are not more widely accepted as a Download band. You'd think they are Harry Styles or Radiohead the way some talk about them.

 

[willgooneday]

9 minutes ago, jump said:

If KoRn took a long enough break away from the fest they would be a headliner upon their return imo. I think it's tied between KoRn and Biffy as the band that has played Download the most but as they are playing so often it's made the punters too accustomed to them not headlining to accept them. It would do wonders for them instead of playing Download on a new album to miss Download completely and do a full proper tour which they haven't done since that co-headline thing with Limp Bizkit ages ago.

Speaking of it's really shocking that a band that has played Download so many times like Biffy are not more widely accepted as a Download band. You'd think they are Harry Styles or Radiohead the way some talk about them.

 

 

 

Just because Copping insists on booking them because he's afraid of anything softer on the bill doesn't make them a Download band. I'm a big Biffy fan but it's not a drop everything deal if their on the lineup like say Tool or GNR were.

 

The big issue is they don't attract a crowd - they play everywhere and anything so anyone who likes them but not metal per se (most Biffy fans) will just catch them at Glasto/TRNSMT/R+L or their own tour. They might musically fit in to an extent but there an awful booking in terms of crowd pull. Everybody else whose not really into them and came for Maiden and KISS will just go home - and it seems that's what happened. It was obvious when the poster came out. Had SOAD been able to jog their dates and play that wouldn't have been an issue. Biffy at Download aren't shifting day tickets because they aren't rare enough for a UK festival. Kiss and Maiden are which is why everyone seems to agree there days felt busier. 

Anyway if we're getting the announcement as early as rumoured it's obviously something their happy with as a festival next year and not a Biffy situation. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by willgooneday

[BenG92]

3 minutes ago, jump said:

If KoRn took a long enough break away from the fest they would be a headliner upon their return imo. I think it's tied between KoRn and Biffy as the band that has played Download the most but as they are playing so often it's made the punters too accustomed to them not headlining to accept them. It would do wonders for them instead of playing Download on a new album to miss Download completely and do a full proper tour which they haven't done since that co-headline thing with Limp Bizkit ages ago.

Speaking of it's really shocking that a band that has played Download so many times like Biffy are not more widely accepted as a Download band. You'd think they are Harry Styles or Radiohead the way some talk about them.

Yeah indeed. I've been saying Deftones too for a while but honestly hearing feedback from their recent lives shows, maybe not. Sounds like they're suited to a dark indoors. Not seen them myself since Koi No Yokan.

Agree on Biffy who get an incredibly unfair wrap because of fucking X Factor of all things. So many people I mention Biffy too and their immediate reaction is "what, when we collide? not interested". Meanwhile at Leeds they look like Slayer next to most of the bill. 

[NorthernSoul52]

7 hours ago, willgooneday said:

Mark Knopfler

WE WANT DIRE STRAITS AND WE WANT THEM NOW, GODDAMNIT.

Thu: Ghost / Parkway Drive / Sabaton
Fri: My Chemical Romance / Smashing Pumpkins / You Me at Six
Sat: Metallica / Architects / Judas Priest
Sun: Guns 'N' Roses / Black Stone Cherry / Hollywood Vampires

Not wholly satisfied with that ordering, will admit.

[willgooneday]

12 minutes ago, NorthernSoul52 said:

WE WANT DIRE STRAITS AND WE WANT THEM NOW, GODDAMNIT.

Thu: Ghost / Parkway Drive / Sabaton
Fri: My Chemical Romance / Smashing Pumpkins / You Me at Six
Sat: Metallica / Architects / Judas Priest
Sun: Guns 'N' Roses / Black Stone Cherry / Hollywood Vampires

Not wholly satisfied with that ordering, will admit.

More chance of Dire Straits Legacy headlining Download than Mark Knopfler joining the rest of them - who doesn't even show up for their own hall of fame induction. Gotta be some bad blood there. 

[NorthernSoul52]

By all accounts, he's still on fairly good terms with John Illsley - but that's it.

This being said, his attitude to some of their material has thawed - saw him in Leeds a few years ago, and he was dusting off Money for Nothing  for the first time in years.

[gabrielomachado]

39 minutes ago, NorthernSoul52 said:

WE WANT DIRE STRAITS AND WE WANT THEM NOW, GODDAMNIT.

Thu: Ghost / Parkway Drive / Sabaton
Fri: My Chemical Romance / Smashing Pumpkins / You Me at Six
Sat: Metallica / Architects / Judas Priest
Sun: Guns 'N' Roses / Black Stone Cherry / Hollywood Vampires

Not wholly satisfied with that ordering, will admit.

Judas Priest are far too big to 3rd down, other than that i would love this

[NorthernSoul52]

8 minutes ago, gabrielomachado said:

Judas Priest are far too big to 3rd down, other than that i would love this

My fear too. Had them as a sub, but Architects seem to have rising stock. Both perhaps more suited to sub slots, while Black Stone Cherry played as a second stage headliner against My Chemical Romance (which would remove the repeat combination, given I believe they subbed Guns 'N' Roses a few years ago too?).

[Andre91]

Priest would make a fantastic Second Stage headliner. 

[jump]

To me Judas Priest are ones of those inflated bands where people think they alot bigger than they actually are (like how people think Download has only stadium headliners despite the majority of years not having any stadium bands play) so second stage headliners seem like a perfect spot in my opinion.

I can't see them playing to be honest, they are in a contract to support Ozzy on his last UK tour which until he finally cancels it they seem unable to play in the UK.

Edited June 30, 2022 by jump

[NorthernSoul52]

The Ozzy tour would be wrapped before Download though, would it not?

[jump]

6 minutes ago, NorthernSoul52 said:

The Ozzy tour would be wrapped before Download though, would it not?

Ozzy is in June so I don't think Judas could be added to the poster until a few days before the fest if it is Ozzy blocking them playing in the UK.

[NorthernSoul52]

Ah, fair enough. It has been rescheduled so many times, I've lost track.

[beetchez]

A comment on Facebook suggested Metallica/Ozzy/Metallica/SOAD with a shit-ton of likes. Subs being Alter Bridge, Rob Zombie, Slash and Black Stone Cherry.

I would honestly lose hope if that were the lineup. The festival needs new bands. Even a band like Bon Jovi would be somewhat different.

[jump]

24 minutes ago, beetchez said:

A comment on Facebook suggested Metallica/Ozzy/Metallica/SOAD with a shit-ton of likes. Subs being Alter Bridge, Rob Zombie, Slash and Black Stone Cherry.

I would honestly lose hope if that were the lineup. The festival needs new bands. Even a band like Bon Jovi would be somewhat different.

They are having a laugh with Ozzy. He's got his own dates which have been pushed back for years now then throw in his health issues it would be mad for them to book him.

Edited July 1, 2022 by jump