Trainwreck:Woodstock '99 Netflix Doc

[The Nal]

3 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

None of these so called punk gigs or warehouse raves were as edgy as the premiere of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring in Paris 1913.

Pfft. Think thats edgy? You weren't at the premiere of Handels Messiah in Dublin in 1742. 

[CaledonianGonzo]

18 minutes ago, The Nal said:

Pfft. Think thats edgy? You weren't at the premiere of Handels Messiah in Dublin in 1742. 

That's the problem with trying to compare good old days with other good old days.  Someone can always Top Trump you.

[DeanoL]

2 hours ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

You're being so disingenuous. If you really thought everyone here who says they like edginess means that we like sexual assault, I mean, come on, that's ridiculous. 

Edge can me many things; energy, intensity, moshing, slight anarchy, moodiness, rebellion - all from the performer or crowd or both, about not knowing what might happen next (but not sexual assault or battery or incest or murder or terrorism or rape, or other heinous crimes, not that I should have to mention them so you won't jump to conclusions).

It's subjective sure, but edge is more Metallica, less Spice Girls.

I'm genuinely not being disingenuous. Nor did I say it means you like sexual assualt. I said as you quoted: "Is it the feeling their might be sexual assaults or violence, without it actually happening?"

I wasn't being a c**t with saying that. It was a genuine question, I was talking about the sense of danger, but without any actual danger. Which is seemingly exactly what you meant with this comment?

2 hours ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

***Before anyone gets all Nurse Ratchett on me about the 'bordering on dangerous' comment, I mean more like a rollercoaster, bungee jumping, going white water rafting...

Take the sexual assault out of what we're discussing as it's such an emotive thing, but that feeling that it *might* kick off? That it's on the edge and might turn into a fight at any moment? I've certainly been at gigs like that. I really don't like the feeling to be honest but I get that some might enjoy it.

But that's the only thing that seems to separate energetic/lively from this "edgy" idea. 

I might be misconstruing you entirely but the only other time I've heard it talked about in terms of music is when people say Glastonbury lost its "edginess" after the fence went up, because all the organised crime went away and it became safe.

Edited August 9, 2022 by DeanoL

[Skip997]

2 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

I might be misconstruing you entirely but the only other time I've heard it talked about in terms of music is when people say Glastonbury lost its "edginess" after the fence went up, because all the organised crime went away and it became safe.

Of course getting rid of the organised crime is a vast improvement.

But that's not the "edge" I miss. It's things like the Mutoid Waste Carhenge 1987 or The Dogs of Heaven wicker man (can't remember the year), approved but unregulated "performances" that encouraged and inspired people to get involved in a relatively spontaneous and creative manner.

[fred quimby]

48 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

Of course getting rid of the organised crime is a vast improvement.

But that's not the "edge" I miss. It's things like the Mutoid Waste Carhenge 1987 or The Dogs of Heaven wicker man (can't remember the year), approved but unregulated "performances" that encouraged and inspired people to get involved in a relatively spontaneous and creative manner.

I hear you. 

That wickerman was amazing, no idea on year either. There was a mayham and anarchy feeling about all those days. The crowd seemed to self regulate it as well, without the need for things being regulated by others as they are now. Understand that it could not carry on as the world moved on.

However, I do remember it changing from hot knife tents and people with boards outside vans selling their products to people with machetes and guns, so certain things had to change, like introducing the police.  Still feel that the festival has moved with the times but allowing a certain freedom inside the fence.

Wonder if people are inspired to create from what they see now, I hope so. 

Love the fact that LBGTQ is now more prominent which would not of happened in the old days, once again reflecting the movement if the festival

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

4 hours ago, Alvoram said:

There's a huge difference between 'danger' and 'perceived danger' One can be fun, the other can be hell. 

All of those activities you described are fun because of the perceived danger. They seem dangerous, but you're more likely to get hurt when driving to the activity. 

Some of the old mosh pits were creating serious injuries every 30 seconds, (not counting things like sexual assaults,) I'd say that is way beyond perceived danger. 

Nowadays though, it is possible to have that perceived danger feeling, whilst it all remains reasonably safe. Pits nowadays generally consist of shoulder bumping, whilst people can get hurt, it's not common or usually serious. I think (hope) this is what you're after... Not for anybody to get hurt, but for more of that crowd interactivity that gives you that perception of danger and makes a gig more fun, but without crossing that 'too far' line? I can completely get that. 🙂 

Yeah totally, that's what I mean when I say bordering on danger, like you're doing something risky, but realistically you're more or less perfectly safe. That's why a whole heap of risky behaviour is attractive or fun to do and I get that.

Drugs, extreme sports, rollercoasters and driving above the speed limit, etc etc.

I have to confess with moshpits I've never experienced anything worse than a few bruises, although it wouldn't surprise me that some people get overzealous, or they're too drunk, and they go to far - they're normally reminded to calm down pretty quickly - although again, it depends on the crowd and music perhaps, I'm sure there's more extreme moshpits I've not been in before. As far as sexual assault goes, I would really hope that if anyone saw that in a moshpit, or if I saw it, it wouldn't be tolerated. In all my times at festivals, I've not heard from any female friends anything close to sexual assault in the moshpit or other places. Not that I'm saying it doesn't happen, statistically it must do.

 

 

 

[Alvoram]

1 minute ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Yeah totally, that's what I mean when I say bordering on danger, like you're doing something risky, but realistically you're more or less perfectly safe. That's why a whole heap of risky behaviour is attractive or fun to do and I get that.

Drugs, extreme sports, rollercoasters and driving above the speed limit, etc etc.

I have to confess with moshpits I've never experienced anything worse than a few bruises, although it wouldn't surprise me that some people get overzealous, or they're too drunk, and they go to far - they're normally reminded to calm down pretty quickly - although again, it depends on the crowd and music perhaps, I'm sure there's more extreme moshpits I've not been in before. As far as sexual assault goes, I would really hope that if anyone saw that in a moshpit, or if I saw it, it wouldn't be tolerated. In all my times at festivals, I've not heard from any female friends anything close to sexual assault in the moshpit or other places. Not that I'm saying it doesn't happen, statistically it must do.

 

 

 

To be honest I wouldn't expect anything less from a member on here / glastonbury fan... That kind of shit aint gonna wash with most people on here / at Glasto I would imagine... I would have thought that glastonbury is probably one of the safest places to get involved with a little crowd 'interactiveness' as the crowd will also govern it, and stop anybody from getting too hurt... They'd also look after anybody who does accidentally get hurt. I'd have no concerns about my daughter getting involved in a pit at Glasto. Not sure I'd say the same about a 90's Oasis concert. 🙈😂
 

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

2 hours ago, DeanoL said:

I'm genuinely not being disingenuous. Nor did I say it means you like sexual assualt. I said as you quoted: "Is it the feeling their might be sexual assaults or violence, without it actually happening?"

I wasn't being a c**t with saying that. It was a genuine question, I was talking about the sense of danger, but without any actual danger. Which is seemingly exactly what you meant with this comment?

Take the sexual assault out of what we're discussing as it's such an emotive thing, but that feeling that it *might* kick off? That it's on the edge and might turn into a fight at any moment? I've certainly been at gigs like that. I really don't like the feeling to be honest but I get that some might enjoy it.

But that's the only thing that seems to separate energetic/lively from this "edgy" idea. 

I might be misconstruing you entirely but the only other time I've heard it talked about in terms of music is when people say Glastonbury lost its "edginess" after the fence went up, because all the organised crime went away and it became safe.

But that's the thing I guess, with the phrasing of that question you make it sound like if I like edginess, I like the feeling that sexual assault is around the corner. Do you know what I mean? I absolutely do not like that kind of edginess, that would be more like horrible disgusting creepiness, than edginess. Perhaps we're worrying about a misunderstanding too much.

Anyway, it's not that it might kick off or there'd be a fight, I absolutely hate violence - I don't even like fighting sports, even the ones that are staged like WWE.

It's just there's a charge in the air. Not between the fans and the performers, or people against one another, but people together in unison having an absolute blast going crazy for a few minutes together like in that clip of Fun Lovin' Criminals. It's dark, moody, exciting, craziness, that you're there to indulge and rebel (against wider society perhaps), that you're doing something you shoudn't perhaps - taking drugs, getting pissed, enjoying a song your family wouldn't approve of, you know? It's hard to tangibly find one definition but for me it's not about getting close to violence or assault.

And fwiw, I've been to energetic performances or in crowds before, but I wouldn't necessarily call them edgy. Plenty of acts under the Spider have people dancing like loons but I wouldn't say it's edgy.

[Nobby's Old Boots]

6 hours ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

This was from DeanL, but Old Nobby's Boots implied it a few pages back too.

"Can you please spell it out then and tell me what "edge" at a gig is? Is it the feeling that there *might* be sexual assaults and violence, but without it actually happening?"

Nobby's Old Boots, please. The boots are old, Nobby ain't.

To be fair if we're talking about being disingenuous, the comment from you I took issue with was "You treat people like animals in a pen, they're gonna start acting like animals in a pen." Which, in a conversation about people committing sexual assault, is glib beyond belief. I said nothing about edgy bands in my reply to that, but, to quote your own post here "I suspect you surely do" know that already.

The edgy thing started because some posters, including me, were a bit surprised that people were expressing their sadness about the demise of "edgy" gigs in a thread about a festival where multiple sexual assaults took place. I agree with the poster who said it's tone deaf, because it is. Edgy is too subjective a word when you could easily argue (and I know you're NOT arguing this) that the "edgy" atmosphere at the festival contributed to some horrendous acts being committed against women. Again, I'm not blaming the bands or genre of music - because I think that's a very flawed argument.

We can chalk it down to a poor choice of words. Maybe don't jump to conclusions based on things you believe were "implied".

 

[Block929]

Ridiculous that they took everyone's water away and then were unable to provide water that was actually safe to drink

[Zoo Music Girl]

8 hours ago, stuie said:

This thread is edgy as fuck. 

So many edgelords edging each other on.

[CaledonianGonzo]

People may have been shoeing me in the baws at Woodstock 99, but at least I was able to feel something.

[CaledonianGonzo]

10 hours ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Okay. I'll spell it out for you. 

B e i n g  e d g y d o e s n ' t m e a n I a m h o p i n g f o r s e x u a l a s s a u l t s o r c o n d o n i n g s e x u a l a s s a u l t s a t a g i g.

There now you don't have to assume I am hoping for sexual assaults at a festival?!

For what it's worth, if you don't know the difference between edge and non-edgy (I suspect you surely do), check out these vids. Guess which one is edgier. 

 

 

 

Aren't you the guy that didn't go to Glastonbury this year but still wrote a letter of complaint to the festival about the crowds?

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

10 hours ago, Nobby's Old Boots said:

Nobby's Old Boots, please. The boots are old, Nobby ain't.

To be fair if we're talking about being disingenuous, the comment from you I took issue with was "You treat people like animals in a pen, they're gonna start acting like animals in a pen." Which, in a conversation about people committing sexual assault, is glib beyond belief. I said nothing about edgy bands in my reply to that, but, to quote your own post here "I suspect you surely do" know that already.

The edgy thing started because some posters, including me, were a bit surprised that people were expressing their sadness about the demise of "edgy" gigs in a thread about a festival where multiple sexual assaults took place. I agree with the poster who said it's tone deaf, because it is. Edgy is too subjective a word when you could easily argue (and I know you're NOT arguing this) that the "edgy" atmosphere at the festival contributed to some horrendous acts being committed against women. Again, I'm not blaming the bands or genre of music - because I think that's a very flawed argument.

We can chalk it down to a poor choice of words. Maybe don't jump to conclusions based on things you believe were "implied".

 

But again, you did imply that I was being glib about sexual assault just because I happened to comment on the festival as a whole and didn't single out all the okay stuff from the not okay stuff. I very much wasn't, I just assumed everyone on these forums would be able to read between the lines and know that sexual assault is horrible. I've learnt since that I need to include every heinous crime that I'm against, so that people don't put two and two together and get five.

Fwiw, I do think if you treat people badly, they have a tendency to react badly over time in the right conditions. People are not a precise species and there are countless examples of different ideas taking place in different areas of the world resulting in different moral codes. You only need to look at religion for that. Anyway, that's not really where I saw this conversation going, talking down the merits of organised religion 😆 Just look at the Stanford Prison Experiment as another example.

Anyway, I agree, edgy can mean different things to different people, but all in all, I would say that most people would have some crossover with their views on what edgy means, esp in terms of a festival. 

 

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

7 hours ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

Aren't you the guy that didn't go to Glastonbury this year but still wrote a letter of complaint to the festival about the crowds?

Haha, I like that you're following me so closely, Stevie.

Fwiw, you don't need to step into the fire, to want to help put it out. And yeah I did write a letter actually, because I believe people expressing their stories should be heard.

The fact that you dismiss and ridicule all the stories of panic attacks, anxiety, people's tents getting trampled, parents having to protect their children, in the other thread, speaks loudly about your personality.

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by MEGATRONICMEATWAGON

[K2SO]

I haven't watched it yet, but I have seen that the guy who is one if the first punters you see in episode one that shouts "Woodstock, baby! Yeah!" Into the camera is in fact WWE Superstar, The Miz before he became a wrestler 🤣

[moogster]

Not to offend our American friends but how much do you think "American culture" influenced how it went, thinking end 90s?

As in, for example,  I just don't get the whole obsession with breasts, but there's that whole "do not show a nipple" thing that maybe got blown up the other way? 

[The Nal]

1 hour ago, K2SO said:

I haven't watched it yet, but I have seen that the guy who is one if the first punters you see in episode one that shouts "Woodstock, baby! Yeah!" Into the camera is in fact WWE Superstar, The Miz before he became a wrestler 🤣

Peak late 90s douchebag. None more douche. 

1 hour ago, moogster said:

Not to offend our American friends but how much do you think "American culture" influenced how it went, thinking end 90s?

As in, for example,  I just don't get the whole obsession with breasts, but there's that whole "do not show a nipple" thing that maybe got blown up the other way? 

Girls flashing their tits is/was as American as apple pie or whatever. Spring break, Mardi Gras etc. Was in Myrtle Beach in South Carolina for a summer back then and it happened 100s of times a night on the main street. Random sober girls, flash those titties, get some beads around your neck from these lads.

 

I reckon a lot of it has to do with cheerleeding in school and college personally. Can be a fairly toxic and subservient environment.

That said, the majority of attendees at Woodstock 99 had the time of their lives. Just went and had a great time seeing some music. Vast majority didnt harm anyone, most of the campsites were fine.

One thing they didnt touch on in the documentary was the food situation. Nightmare to get food in and out and store it properly in that heat. Some grim trips to the toilet after eating food thats been on the counter of a food truck all day in nearly 40c. 

There was negativity from the Boomer media before anyway due to the lineup which didnt help. Our lovely middle class white kids listening to that rap inspired Nu Metal etc.

Edited August 10, 2022 by The Nal

[moogster]

Well in the HBO/Sky documentary someone was saying pizza boxes were very useful to sleep on, because as they are white that was the best way to ensure you weren't sleeping on piss etc!

 

[K2SO]

1 hour ago, The Nal said:

Peak late 90s douchebag. None more douche. 

Absolutely mate. Fantastic heel though... The guy has somehow made Logan Paul a slightly likeable personality

[Raincatcher]

It’s been pretty poorly expressed in this thread, but I think the lack of ‘edginess’ people are lamenting can be pretty well summed up and understood by the majority on this forum by the following:

Glastonbury pre the super fence = edgy

Glastonbury post the super fence = less edgy

There’s plenty on this forum who feel the festival lost something when it lost all the ‘mushrooms, ecstasy, lsd’ stalls and guys walking through the crowds and campsites selling cans and weed and ‘sold out’ commercially, to an extent.

Edgy in this case surely means bordering on the edge of decency / legality / acceptableness / dangerousness. It’s doesn’t necessarily mean sexual assault, but I suppose that could be included, although I’m sure we can all agree that that is one thing we happy to see the back off at gigs and festivals. However, illegal mushroom stalls and dodgy geezers breaking people in though the fence pre 2000 are viewed through slightly rose tinted spectacles, understandably, though that couldn’t continue, for obvious reasons

[Suprefan]

18 hours ago, moogster said:

Not to offend our American friends but how much do you think "American culture" influenced how it went, thinking end 90s?

As in, for example,  I just don't get the whole obsession with breasts, but there's that whole "do not show a nipple" thing that maybe got blown up the other way? 

Girls Gone Wild also was a big thing at this time and further pushed the desire for more boobs. Theres a documentary on that. For those with access to Hulu there is  whole series  called Dark Side of The 90's if you wanna see some more underbelly stuff that happened in yhe u.s. Also the Pam Anderson and Tommy Lee thing was insane. 

 

https://amp.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/apr/22/joe-francis-girls-gone-wild-documentary

[moogster]

2 hours ago, Suprefan said:

Girls Gone Wild also was a big thing at this time and further pushed the desire for more boobs. Theres a documentary on that. For those with access to Hulu there is  whole series  called Dark Side of The 90's if you wanna see some more underbelly stuff that happened in yhe u.s. Also the Pam Anderson and Tommy Lee thing was insane. 

 

https://amp.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/apr/22/joe-francis-girls-gone-wild-documentary

Oh I watched some of these indeed! (especially liked the Beverly Hills 90210 ☺️). Indeed gave a different image of the decade. 

I actually watched an old Buffy the vampire slayer yesterday, that included some jock characters and indeed the line "hope you make the cheerleaders jump up and down *insert Neanderthal laugh* "

 

[CaledonianGonzo]

6 hours ago, Raincatcher said:

It’s been pretty poorly expressed in this thread, but I think the lack of ‘edginess’ people are lamenting can be pretty well summed up and understood by the majority on this forum by the following:

Glastonbury pre the super fence = edgy

Glastonbury post the super fence = less edgy

There’s plenty on this forum who feel the festival lost something when it lost all the ‘mushrooms, ecstasy, lsd’ stalls and guys walking through the crowds and campsites selling cans and weed and ‘sold out’ commercially, to an extent.

Edgy in this case surely means bordering on the edge of decency / legality / acceptableness / dangerousness. It’s doesn’t necessarily mean sexual assault, but I suppose that could be included, although I’m sure we can all agree that that is one thing we happy to see the back off at gigs and festivals. However, illegal mushroom stalls and dodgy geezers breaking people in though the fence pre 2000 are viewed through slightly rose tinted spectacles, understandably, though that couldn’t continue, for obvious reasons

Yup - rose tinted spectacles. Like racist aunties on Facebook sharing poems that lament the demise of corned beef and unsliced bread, the arch-nostalgists overlook all the positive progress and most of the things they keep banging on about missing still happen.

[philipsteak]

1 hour ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

Yup - rose tinted spectacles. Like racist aunties on Facebook sharing poems that lament the demise of corned beef and unsliced bread, the arch-nostalgists overlook all the positive progress and most of the things they keep banging on about missing still happen.

Think you'll find you get sent to prison just for making a corned beef sandwich these days.