Worthy View, Sticklinch, Tipis and campervans 1st Dec 12.00

[UEF]

3 minutes ago, Havors said:

You do realise its just tents? There is a few toilet blocks and couple of shower blocks. There's nothing else there... 

We know cost have increased and we expect prices to rise but a tent going from 650 to 950 quid in 5 years is mental. You're a fool if you think its not to make extra profit on the back of it.

Now it may be to pay for other things at the festival, nobody is saying its not. But if you think its perfectly normal and just due to increase in providing the tents, you're talking sh*t. 

 

I don't blame them for wanting to make a profit and build a war chest - they had to take 2 years off unplanned, remember. 

[Havors]

2 hours ago, clarkete said:

Which aspect? 

If you're referring to the increase in cost of living, energy etc then of course we all agree, indeed many of us may well think that impact would be massively less if our energy supplies had been subject to a windfall tax, however that and the fact that a myriad of other things are far more expensive in our country as compared to other European countries is clearly a subject for another thread that many of us wouldn't want to delve into. 

Aside from the tipis, I'm wary of this pearl clutching that things which aren't compulsory are increasing at rates not much higher than the rate of inflation.

I'm in little doubt you would be horrified if they increased the ticket price by a few quid extra so I (or someone else) could get a cheaper bunkpad and we would expect that any leftover money is either going into the running of the festival, good causes or helping to recover the reserves after they were decimated and put the future of the event at risk. 

You think the price increases are perfectly fine we get it.
p.s. the ticket prices have gone up. 

[Havors]

Just now, UEF said:

I don't blame them for wanting to make a profit and build a war chest - they had to take 2 years off unplanned, remember. 

I dont disagree. The couple of people on here jumping down peoples throats with the condescending comments seem to just like a nice strawman. 

[clarkete]

1 hour ago, Skip997 said:

Self build/converted vans = good.

Generic white camper vans, costing 10's of thousands = bad

Just a simple fact of life.

Who elected you Judge Judy and Executioner? 

 

[stuie]

4 minutes ago, UEF said:

In that case why don't they give people the opportunity to pay for full tickets in November - is it a tax wheeze?

Companies can defer taxation on deposit payments but full ticket payments would be classed as earned income and create a VAT liability.  

[clarkete]

3 minutes ago, Havors said:

I dont disagree. The couple of people on here jumping down peoples throats with the condescending comments seem to just like a nice strawman. 

You seem to be the one who simply ignores any points about inflation or other costs because in your eyes it's "a few toilet blocks and couple of shower blocks". 

[incident]

3 minutes ago, clarkete said:

You seem to be the one who simply ignores any points about inflation or other costs because in your eyes it's "a few toilet blocks and couple of shower blocks". 

And a load of fencing. And a reception. And a gate in the main fence, which is being staffed 24/7. etc etc.

[Alvoram]

8 minutes ago, Havors said:

You do realise its just tents? There is a few toilet blocks and couple of shower blocks. There's nothing else there... 

We know cost have increased and we expect prices to rise but a tent going from 650 to 950 quid in 5 years is mental. You're a fool if you think its not to make extra profit on the back of it.

Now it may be to pay for other things at the festival, nobody is saying its not. But if you think its perfectly normal and just due to increase in providing the tents, you're talking sh*t. 

 

That's not entirely true is it?

There's the tents, yes, but they don't belong to Glastonbury, (they're from podpads or whatever they're called) so the prices will have gone up for those too.

But there's also

• Toilets
• Showers
• Electrical infrastructure (Generators)
• Fuel for the generators
• Water Infrastructure
• Trackway
• Fencing
• Security
• Land Rental

And that's just off the top of my head, all of these will have risen in price in that time, some of them a lot more than 30%.

That being said, I wouldn't say I disagree with the point you were making, there may well be additional profit being sought on the glamping options, and why not if there's demand? As I said before, it's a luxury, not an essential, and if demand massively outstrips supply, then bump those prices up to keep costs down for others elsewhere elsewhere. 

[Paul ™]

1 hour ago, Alvoram said:

That's not entirely true is it?

There's the tents, yes, but they don't belong to Glastonbury, (they're from podpads or whatever they're called) so the prices will have gone up for those too.

But there's also

• Toilets
• Showers
• Electrical infrastructure (Generators)
• Fuel for the generators
• Water Infrastructure
• Trackway
• Fencing
• Security
• Land Rental

And that's just off the top of my head, all of these will have risen in price in that time, some of them a lot more than 30%.

That being said, I wouldn't say I disagree with the point you were making, there may well be additional profit being sought on the glamping options, and why not if there's demand? As I said before, it's a luxury, not an essential, and if demand massively outstrips supply, then bump those prices up to keep costs down for others elsewhere elsewhere. 

Exactly, you forgot these and there are more too... remember these are over 24/7 period from build, show and break usually over a few weeks.

 

• Site Managers/Assistant Managers

• Plant Hire

• Crew

• Insurance

[Havors]

5 hours ago, clarkete said:

You seem to be the one who simply ignores any points about inflation or other costs because in your eyes it's "a few toilet blocks and couple of shower blocks". 

If you want to play that game then you're the one who simply makes up imaginary costs because in your eyes they wouldn't want to make a chunk of extra profit. 

Let's stop being stupid and mistaking an opinion as fact. 

[Havors]

5 hours ago, Alvoram said:

That's not entirely true is it?

There's the tents, yes, but they don't belong to Glastonbury, (they're from podpads or whatever they're called) so the prices will have gone up for those too.

But there's also

• Toilets
• Showers
• Electrical infrastructure (Generators)
• Fuel for the generators
• Water Infrastructure
• Trackway
• Fencing
• Security
• Land Rental

And that's just off the top of my head, all of these will have risen in price in that time, some of them a lot more than 30%.

That being said, I wouldn't say I disagree with the point you were making, there may well be additional profit being sought on the glamping options, and why not if there's demand? As I said before, it's a luxury, not an essential, and if demand massively outstrips supply, then bump those prices up to keep costs down for others elsewhere elsewhere. 

Nobody is saying there isn't increased costs. But let's not pull things out of our ass and pretend we know what. 

It's not as simple as saying the cost of something has increased 30%. Unless you dont understand the math and margins. The price they charge for tents increasing 30% does not equate to the cost of a shower block or generator increasing 30%....   

If they make £1m from tents 30% of that is much much more than the cost of some infrastructure prices raising 30%. 

Anyway the top and bottom of it is the prices are increasingly become quite insane (especially for what you actually get) there will be a breaking point.

I'm not against them making some profit to fund other things but the prices are becoming mental.

[clarkete]

3 hours ago, Havors said:

If you want to play that game then you're the one who simply makes up imaginary costs because in your eyes they wouldn't want to make a chunk of extra profit. 

Let's stop being stupid and mistaking an opinion as fact. 

You see all those other costs which have been listed by others, which you carry on ignoring? 

I'm merely pointing out that, during a cost of living crisis which has pushed millions intp poverty I'm intrigued why people's optional accommodation having a price increase broadly in line with inflation is the hill you choose to die on? 

https://www.bigissue.com/news/social-justice/uk-poverty-the-facts-figures-effects-solutions-cost-living-crisis/

They certainly aren't in a position to absorb any costs themselves. 

"the cancellation caused huge financial repercussions for Glastonbury, who saw annual turnover fall from £45 million to just £950,000" 

https://www.clashmusic.com/live/glastonbury-festival-lost-3-million-in-2021/

Feel free to go through @Alvoram's or @Pauls list and highlight any of those costs which have not risen in line with inflation. 

Edited November 28, 2023 by clarkete

[Alvoram]

3 hours ago, Havors said:

Nobody is saying there isn't increased costs. But let's not pull things out of our ass and pretend we know what. 

It's not as simple as saying the cost of something has increased 30%. Unless you dont understand the math and margins. The price they charge for tents increasing 30% does not equate to the cost of a shower block or generator increasing 30%....   

If they make £1m from tents 30% of that is much much more than the cost of some infrastructure prices raising 30%. 

Anyway the top and bottom of it is the prices are increasingly become quite insane (especially for what you actually get) there will be a breaking point.

I'm not against them making some profit to fund other things but the prices are becoming mental.

Then camp in general, it's free. 🤷‍♂️

Of course their prices directly relate to their costs... In very simple terms, their pricing relates to their overheads, plus cost of sales, plus desired gross profit %, plus VAT. Not sure what you mean with regards to understanding the math or margin, it's quite easy to understand. If all or any of the values that make up that sum increase (including, to be fair to you, desired gross profit,) then the price goes up accordingly.

Actually I think it's you that is missing some key calculations.

For one, if your costs to deliver a product, that you charge £100 for, goes up from £50 to £70... You don't just whack £20 on the price, as you'd be eating the extra VAT expense. (A product you're selling for £100, that costs £50 to produce, including costs and overheads, nets you £33.33 net profit after VAT. If you were to put that up to £120 because your costs went up to £70, your profits just dropped to £30 after VAT.)

Secondly, you'd be eating a drop in profit %. No business I know works in flat rates for profit, they usually calculate a desired profit %. So for example.

Cost £50 + Desired GP £33.33 (40% GP Margin which you can calculate by adding 66.66% to base / cost) + VAT (20%) £16.66 = £100 Rounded

Cost £70 + Desired GP £46.66 (40% GP Margin which you can calculate by adding 66.66% to base / cost) + VAT (20%) £23.32 = £140 Rounded

Funny that? How a 40% rise in costs still led to a 40% rise in pricing, and yet the GP Margin remained the same at 40%. 

(Of course, a traditional business producing or reselling a physical product wouldn't include overheads in GP calculations, just cost of sales / production, and would instead opt to aim for a much higher GP margin to cover overheads. I did here because a) It's how I'd do it if I ran this sort of business, where the bulk of my costs were, what might traditionally be classed as, overheads. Actual cost of sales, in the traditional sense of the word, would be low, so not factoring overheads into your pricing properly could be dangerous. and b) it just makes the examples easier to understand without having to explain the difference between costs and overheads...🤣) 

[philipsteak]

15 hours ago, incident said:

And a load of fencing. And a reception. And a gate in the main fence, which is being staffed 24/7. etc etc.

Don't know about WV as I've never worked there but there's 4 gates in total for Sticklinch (3 directly for Sticklinch and one because of it)

[CaledonianGonzo]

Worthy View also has stewarding points at various points along the access road after the turnoff from the main road.

[pops1998]

Is anyone aware of what the situation is for getting to Worthy View if you’re coming by Coach (the seetickets one) … do you get dropped off at a certain gate and have to walk across site and up the hill with all your bags? Or is there a shuttle that can take you to the entrance? 

[CaledonianGonzo]

1 minute ago, pops1998 said:

Is anyone aware of what the situation is for getting to Worthy View if you’re coming by Coach (the seetickets one) … do you get dropped off at a certain gate and have to walk across site and up the hill with all your bags? Or is there a shuttle that can take you to the entrance? 

Walk or shuttle bus from the coach station at PGA.

However, the shuttle buses aren't frequent and take a while..

[Havors]

10 hours ago, Alvoram said:

Then camp in general, it's free. 🤷‍♂️

Of course their prices directly relate to their costs... In very simple terms, their pricing relates to their overheads, plus cost of sales, plus desired gross profit %, plus VAT. Not sure what you mean with regards to understanding the math or margin, it's quite easy to understand. If all or any of the values that make up that sum increase (including, to be fair to you, desired gross profit,) then the price goes up accordingly.

Actually I think it's you that is missing some key calculations.

For one, if your costs to deliver a product, that you charge £100 for, goes up from £50 to £70... You don't just whack £20 on the price, as you'd be eating the extra VAT expense. (A product you're selling for £100, that costs £50 to produce, including costs and overheads, nets you £33.33 net profit after VAT. If you were to put that up to £120 because your costs went up to £70, your profits just dropped to £30 after VAT.)

Secondly, you'd be eating a drop in profit %. No business I know works in flat rates for profit, they usually calculate a desired profit %. So for example.

Cost £50 + Desired GP £33.33 (40% GP Margin which you can calculate by adding 66.66% to base / cost) + VAT (20%) £16.66 = £100 Rounded

Cost £70 + Desired GP £46.66 (40% GP Margin which you can calculate by adding 66.66% to base / cost) + VAT (20%) £23.32 = £140 Rounded

Funny that? How a 40% rise in costs still led to a 40% rise in pricing, and yet the GP Margin remained the same at 40%. 

(Of course, a traditional business producing or reselling a physical product wouldn't include overheads in GP calculations, just cost of sales / production, and would instead opt to aim for a much higher GP margin to cover overheads. I did here because a) It's how I'd do it if I ran this sort of business, where the bulk of my costs were, what might traditionally be classed as, overheads. Actual cost of sales, in the traditional sense of the word, would be low, so not factoring overheads into your pricing properly could be dangerous. and b) it just makes the examples easier to understand without having to explain the difference between costs and overheads...🤣) 

Not sure you even read my post properly, but thank you for helping prove my point.... 

Lets make it simple. A profit margin is not the same as profit. 

Maintaining a profit margin while increasing your revenue = much more profit. 

e.g.

Year 1 - Revenue = £1m at 40% margin = £400k profit. 
Year 2 - Revenue = £1.3m at 40% margin = £520k profit. 

All this aside Im sorry you seem to have taken offence to my opinion, but thats your problem. You are quite welcome to be happy at the increased cost of tents and I am quite welcome to think the prices are getting out of hand. 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Havors

[Havors]

10 hours ago, clarkete said:

You see all those other costs which have been listed by others, which you carry on ignoring? 

I'm merely pointing out that, during a cost of living crisis which has pushed millions intp poverty I'm intrigued why people's optional accommodation having a price increase broadly in line with inflation is the hill you choose to die on? 

https://www.bigissue.com/news/social-justice/uk-poverty-the-facts-figures-effects-solutions-cost-living-crisis/

They certainly aren't in a position to absorb any costs themselves. 

"the cancellation caused huge financial repercussions for Glastonbury, who saw annual turnover fall from £45 million to just £950,000" 

https://www.clashmusic.com/live/glastonbury-festival-lost-3-million-in-2021/

Feel free to go through @Alvoram's or @Pauls list and highlight any of those costs which have not risen in line with inflation. 

Im not ignoring anything. You are strawmanning me. 

My point is they are making more profit from the tents each year. I think the prices are getting a bit insane but I never once said I dont understand why they are putting the prices up or that Im not sympathetic to the reasons why. 

All im saying is its getting a bit crazy. I will pay the price for as long as I can afford to and Im quite entitled to my opinion thanks. 

[Alvoram]

31 minutes ago, Havors said:

Not sure you even read my post properly, but thank you for helping prove my point.... 

Lets make it simple. A profit margin is not the same as profit. 

Maintaining a profit margin while increasing your revenue = much more profit. 

e.g.

Year 1 - Revenue = £1m at 40% margin = £400k profit. 
Year 2 - Revenue = £1.3m at 40% margin = £530k profit. 

Whats that? Is that an increase in profits more than the 30% increase in revenue?? Surely not? 

All this aside Im sorry you seem to have taken offence to my opinion, but thats your problem. You are quite welcome to be happy at the increased cost of tents and I am quite welcome to think the prices are getting out of hand. 

 

Not angry in the slightest, but you don't seem to understand how margins are calculated, or the difference between costs and overheads. We'll ignore the fact that you're not factoring increased VAT liability into your increased turnover / revenue, and just focus on your core point.

That increase in profits that you're highlighting there would usually cover the increase in overheads, that aren't normally calculated into a 'gross profit margin.' As well as unforeseen overheads. 

Gross profit is calculated using cost of sales, these are direct expenses of delivering a product or service, so usually materials or ingredients. Or in this case I would choose to include some traditional overheads too, like energy and ground rent. 

Things like, in this case, wages, podpads head office rent and expenses, insurance, business rates, waste disposal etc etc, all of the costs accrued by the business through a financial year that aren't directly attributable to the sale of one product or service. They are all overheads. They wouldn't be included in a GP calculation. Therefore that extra £130k would be expected to cover the increase to those items. 

Not necessarily an increase in revenue (I think you meant profit here.) 

To be clear, and as I said earlier, I don't necessarily think you're wrong in that they're wanting to increase their profits, but I wouldn't assume you were correct either, given the rise in costs for all businesses. There is absolutely no way for us to know, as we can't see podpads / GFL's detailed chart of accounts. 

(EDITED TO ADD: To be clear, I'm no accountant, I only have a very basic understanding of all this myself, but that basic understanding is enough to know that in the current climate, costs have been rising sharply, on and off, for 3 years, and I'm never surprised when I see any business put their prices up by 20% or more. 30% is on the higher end of that expectation though, I do have to admit.)

Edited November 28, 2023 by Alvoram

[Havors]

1 hour ago, Alvoram said:

Not angry in the slightest, but you don't seem to understand how margins are calculated, or the difference between costs and overheads. We'll ignore the fact that you're not factoring increased VAT liability into your increased turnover / revenue, and just focus on your core point.

That increase in profits that you're highlighting there would usually cover the increase in overheads, that aren't normally calculated into a 'gross profit margin.' As well as unforeseen overheads. 

Gross profit is calculated using cost of sales, these are direct expenses of delivering a product or service, so usually materials or ingredients. Or in this case I would choose to include some traditional overheads too, like energy and ground rent. 

Things like, in this case, wages, podpads head office rent and expenses, insurance, business rates, waste disposal etc etc, all of the costs accrued by the business through a financial year that aren't directly attributable to the sale of one product or service. They are all overheads. They wouldn't be included in a GP calculation. Therefore that extra £130k would be expected to cover the increase to those items. 

Not necessarily an increase in revenue (I think you meant profit here.) 

To be clear, and as I said earlier, I don't necessarily think you're wrong in that they're wanting to increase their profits, but I wouldn't assume you were correct either, given the rise in costs for all businesses. There is absolutely no way for us to know, as we can't see podpads / GFL's detailed chart of accounts. 

(EDITED TO ADD: To be clear, I'm no accountant, I only have a very basic understanding of all this myself, but that basic understanding is enough to know that in the current climate, costs have been rising sharply, on and off, for 3 years, and I'm never surprised when I see any business put their prices up by 20% or more. 30% is on the higher end of that expectation though, I do have to admit.)

I feel like you're arguing with me for the sake of arguing 😝. Nobody is debating there's a large increase in costs. But the top and bottom of it is I find it hard to believe that the truly huge increase in revenue doesn't outstrip the increase in costs inc overheads. 

The nature of what's being offered means there is the possiblity of massive profit margins. Maintaining the profit margin and having a huge increase in revenue will mean more profit even at net. 

As has been said they likely make massive profit on WV which helps offset other cost for the festival. They added sticklinch because they know its a massive money maker. Surely that's obvious?

Again I've never said I don't understand why they do it or that I disagree with them making profit they need/want.

I'm not sure why this turned into some massive debate about me having the opinion it's a lot of money and probably unsustainable if they keep doing it. I think its a pefectly valid opinion haha 

 

[Alvoram]

2 hours ago, Havors said:

I feel like you're arguing with me for the sake of arguing 😝. Nobody is debating there's a large increase in costs. But the top and bottom of it is I find it hard to believe that the truly huge increase in revenue doesn't outstrip the increase in costs inc overheads. 

The nature of what's being offered means there is the possiblity of massive profit margins. Maintaining the profit margin and having a huge increase in revenue will mean more profit even at net. 

As has been said they likely make massive profit on WV which helps offset other cost for the festival. They added sticklinch because they know its a massive money maker. Surely that's obvious?

Again I've never said I don't understand why they do it or that I disagree with them making profit they need/want.

I'm not sure why this turned into some massive debate about me having the opinion it's a lot of money and probably unsustainable if they keep doing it. I think its a pefectly valid opinion haha 

 

I can be an argumentative prick sometimes, sorry about that 😕 

So I'll just reiterate my last paragraph, as I think that is the most important part. 

I don't necessarily think you're wrong in that they're wanting to increase their profits, but I wouldn't assume you were correct either, given the rise in costs for all businesses. There is absolutely no way for us to know, as we can't see podpads / GFL's detailed chart of accounts.

Or to put it another way, I think you're right, but for all the reasons I've posted above, it's not a conclusion I'd be certain of, I have just enough doubt, or should I say just about enough reason to believe, their costs rising 'may' have warranted the hike in prices. Because we're on the verge of having to implement another price rise at our place, after a roughley 20% hike last year. (First since 2019, and it'll be single digit rise this time, 3 to 5%)

[clarkete]

On 11/28/2023 at 1:43 PM, Havors said:

I feel like you're arguing with me for the sake of arguing 😝.

TBH I suspect @Alvoram and I had felt like we were on the receiving end of the same.  Like him I've been argumentative on far too many occasions - indeed it's been said by several of my nearest and dearest and the few social networks I've been on have had a touch of that sometimes - I get a bit emphatic about politics ('kin tories, etc and that's the thing that gets me ranting elsewhere regularly 😉 ) 

For one reason or another I've noticed that a selection of things I pay for had risen sharply during the last few years, indeed in some cases over 4 or 5 years by even higher rates than those we've discussed here.  And that's with me being in the fortunate position of being able to cover those increases - but of course as with many of us I know or see folks in other professions who don't have that luxury, indeed the night before last I spent 6 hours in A&E with my mum (thankfully all turned out OK) and by my count I think over a dozen people helped her in some way or other and many of those who did a cracking job and remained calm and polite despite my mum becoming impatient on occasion have had increases well below inflation for many of the last few years.

As you see...it's never that I'm trying to do a strawman or gaslight someone (I usually have to look up the terms to remind myself what they are), it's just that I sometimes ramble or make an imprecise point. 

It had made me reluctant to come back since then, when things have been a bit gloomy or tiring in yer day to day the last thing you want is to have more of that when you come to efests, so hope this is all OK now.

Let's all have a group hug 😘

 

[UEF]

How many identical campervan tickets are you able to buy per registration? I would assume one, others are saying multiples

 

[Crazyfool01]

2 minutes ago, UEF said:

How many identical campervan tickets are you able to buy per registration? I would assume one, others are saying multiples

 

calling @gazzared .... but yeah its been multiples in the past