UK Politics

[Neil]

Just now, kaosmark2 said:

 

It's "the cost of everything and the value of nothing" politics. Reeves has, in the past, made the emotional, principled argument for economic policies. She's stopped that now, and I suspect this is from briefings by Starmer and his closest allies.

in the past reeves was working with a mythical future, where the outcome of her policies always worked as hoped, and where there was slack in the numbers to find money for investment.

[kaosmark2]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

agree it is a bit sh*tty (and disingenuous as net migration was forecast to come down anyway)...but...well...bluntly...immigration is still an important issue for a lot of people...you can continue to argue they're wrong, or just give them something.

 

It's not a bit sh*tty. It's a disgrace. It was bad enough when he was fence-sitting, but I've suffered two racist assaults in the past two years, and unsurprisingly, the racist shitbirds that fill the police weren't interested. These won't go down in the statistics even though I ended up in A&E for one of them. I know others who've had similar experiences, and this is on top of the official rises.

 

This isn't just "a bit sh*tty", this is enabling f**king racist assaults up and down the country. There's been plenty of red lines that have made me leave the party, not vote for them etc, but now I feel I have to actively campaign against the f**king Labour party for the safety of myself and others.

 

f**k them.

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, Neil said:

Blair had the serious studied politician of brown behind him, seems like starmer understands power but not politics.

I think the big difference is Blair had been a politician for a lot longer. But also, Starmer is mostly following advice, I don't think he actually had much to do with this Abbott decisions, all coming from McSweeney and co...and there's some really factional revenge sh*t going on with that lot.

 

[kaosmark2]

Just now, Neil said:

in the past reeves was working with a mythical future, where the outcome of her policies always worked as hoped, and where there was slack in the numbers to find money for investment.

It's not about the slack in the numbers, it's that she's stopped making arguments of principle and only arguments of economics. Even about the exact same policies.

[lazyred]

10 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

 

Blair was willing to argue for the societal benefit of things. We got a minimum wage, surestart, new schools, new transport infrastructure. He was willing to promise hope. He was a league ahead of Starmer.

 

These twats only promise hate. I'm done with thinking there's any hope for the Labour party improving society. Starmer is too busy playing dogwhistle politics and enabling hatespeech.

 

A human rights lawyer who will attack human rights at home and abroad.

 

It's disgraceful.

Blair, Brown and Cameron all continually promised to bring down legal migration. Brown even said British Jobs for British Workers at one point. None of them meant it. They couldn't stop migration from  the EU but actually they didn't  want to. Their policy for all of them  was to use migration to keep low wages and flexible employment. At least Blair compensated with tax credits and extra funds for certain areas.

[Neil]

5 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

I feel I have to actively campaign against the f**king Labour party for the safety of myself and others.

i get why you're saying that, but when the only other outcome will be tories, its not a great idea if you want something better than the tories.

[steviewevie]

Just now, kaosmark2 said:

 

It's not a bit sh*tty. It's a disgrace. It was bad enough when he was fence-sitting, but I've suffered two racist assaults in the past two years, and unsurprisingly, the racist shitbirds that fill the police weren't interested. These won't go down in the statistics even though I ended up in A&E for one of them. I know others who've had similar experiences, and this is on top of the official rises.

 

This isn't just "a bit sh*tty", this is enabling f**king racist assaults up and down the country. There's been plenty of red lines that have made me leave the party, not vote for them etc, but now I feel I have to actively campaign against the f**king Labour party for the safety of myself and others.

 

f**k them.

ok ok. sorry to hear about your experience, that is truly terrible...but there should be a way to talk about immigration without provoking racism...because for some people, normally those on lower income scales, higher immigration does have an impact.

 

[steviewevie]

Here is Starmer and his Sun article...if you dare...

 

sets out two things...first that bosses who pay less than minimum wage will not be able to hire from abroad, and with training sectors applying for foreign worker visas must first train British people. Not sure how that works. They have that sort of thing in other countries? I know they do in Canada.

 

[kaosmark2]

1 hour ago, Neil said:

i get why you're saying that, but when the only other outcome will be tories, its not a great idea if you want something better than the tories.

I no longer believe Labour will be better than the Tories though.

[Nobody Interesting]

59 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Here is Starmer and his Sun article...if you dare...

 

sets out two things...first that bosses who pay less than minimum wage will not be able to hire from abroad, and with training sectors applying for foreign worker visas must first train British people. Not sure how that works. They have that sort of thing in other countries? I know they do in Canada.

 

 

and when the good old British people who have not yet wanted to do the jobs immigrants do hence we have immigrants doing them what then when the good old British people still don't want to do them?

You can't make someone like wiping the arses of old folk and looking after them and if you think you can ask yourself, would you like to be looked after by someone who simply did not want to look after you?

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, Nobody Interesting said:

 

and when the good old British people who have not yet wanted to do the jobs immigrants do hence we have immigrants doing them what then when the good old British people still don't want to do them?

You can't make someone like wiping the arses of old folk and looking after them and if you think you can ask yourself, would you like to be looked after by someone who simply did not want to look after you?

 

You think people coming in from abroad like wiping old people's arses?

Basically need to improve pay and conditions if want to get British people doing it 

[Nobody Interesting]

14 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

I no longer believe Labour will be better than the Tories though.

 

and the more that think that the more likely the UK will finally get the change it needs - not at this election but in future ones.

The more who don't vote for the main two the better - cos then maybe the main two might not just take it all for granted and try and be each other.

[Nobody Interesting]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

 

You think people coming in from abroad like wiping old people's arses?

Basically need to improve pay and conditions if want to get British people doing it 

 

Many do, they choose the career and are very good at it. People who are able to do such things (cos you cannot train someone to have such abilities) tend to do such things. A good friend of ours is a care nurse and she has seen many arrive who simply cannot cope and they soon leave.

Seriously, think about if it is a job you could do even if you got the training. People losing their minds hitting you, throwing food at you, kicking you, defecating while sat watching TV and so much more. It really is a job only people who want to do it can do properly and with the right care.

[lost]

My mates mum was a carer employed by the council. Retired on a decent final salary pension.

 

I guess the question would be whats changed? We never used to have "sh*t jobs" only good enough for immigrants and "good jobs" for the native population and if there were not enough good jobs at certain times you didn't sit on your arse until one came available you did a sh*t job.

[steviewevie]

31 minutes ago, lost said:

My mates mum was a carer employed by the council. Retired on a decent final salary pension.

 

I guess the question would be whats changed? We never used to have "sh*t jobs" only good enough for immigrants and "good jobs" for the native population and if there were not enough good jobs at certain times you didn't sit on your arse until one came available you did a sh*t job.

Bigger demand, more  old people?

Wasn't that long ago we had more emmigrants than immigrants.

[lost]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

Bigger demand, more  old people?

Wasn't that long ago we had more emmigrants than immigrants.

 

Cheaper houses too. There was a bigger jump in living standards between living off benefits and working unskilled jobs.

[Nobody Interesting]

48 minutes ago, lost said:

My mates mum was a carer employed by the council. Retired on a decent final salary pension.

 

I guess the question would be whats changed? We never used to have "sh*t jobs" only good enough for immigrants and "good jobs" for the native population and if there were not enough good jobs at certain times you didn't sit on your arse until one came available you did a sh*t job.

 

Since the 2nd World War we have bought in immigrants time and time again to do the jobs UK folks did not want to do - it is nothing new.

[Nobody Interesting]

17 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

 

Wasn't that long ago we had more emmigrants than immigrants.

 

and that is something that nobody talks about on the net migration numbers.

100k a year used to leave to live in the EU but now they are unable to go and live in the EU. Also there are around 50k a year of those that did coming back every year.

If you take that off the net total now as well as removing the 'one time only' amounts for Hing Kong and Ukraine then the actual figure of those coming in has not really altered that much - it is just that politicians of most parties seem more than happy to just use the large number to back up whatever they are saying and try and win votes - which stirs up the trouble and anger and hatred that some people have to endure.

[steviewevie]

emigration numbers her were higher than immigration most years between ww2 and early 80s...but since then our economy has become more reliant on immigration. 

Edited June 2 by steviewevie

[steviewevie]

...and actually considering how much net migration has gone up recently it is surprising it hasn't been more of an issue in this election, and I guess shows how much things have changed since brexit. Maybe it's the control bit that was the issue, not so much the numbers?

[lost]

7 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

...and actually considering how much net migration has gone up recently it is surprising it hasn't been more of an issue in this election, and I guess shows how much things have changed since brexit. Maybe it's the control bit that was the issue, not so much the numbers?

 

I think FPTP maybe dampens alot of that with alot of peole seeing voting for anyone apart from the two main parties as a  wasted vote. The european elections next week maybe a better indicator to how people in Europe are feeling about migration currently.

 

People in the UK? Well tories have been promising "ten of thousands" for at least a decade so I guess with Starmers promises this week they are happy to give labour a go.

Edited June 2 by lost

[Nobody Interesting]

Just now, lost said:

 

I think FPTP maybe dampens alot of that. The european elections next week maybe a better indicator to how people in Europe are feeling about migration currently.

 

A question I ask anyone discussing migration is "if we reduce it to the tens of thousands' and still have loads of jobs unfilled what is your suggestion then?'

People who are accepting of immigrants always have a decent discussion about it as happens in this group.

Those who are anti immigration are, on the whole, totally unable to have any kind of conversation on it.

The simple truth is that either the rich western world increases retirement ages and 'forces' people to do jobs they really do not want to do or are not really capable of doing or we have to have immigration. Unless we all have lots more kids soon then this will only ever get worse - until and unless AI takes over lots of jobs. which it will............................ lots and lots of jobs and then the problem turns to something very different.

[lost]

6 minutes ago, Nobody Interesting said:

 

A question I ask anyone discussing migration is "if we reduce it to the tens of thousands' and still have loads of jobs unfilled what is your suggestion then?'

 

I'd probably go with what the labour party have suggested. Target the 22% of people of working age who are not, coupled with getting house prices down by building more / reducing demand to create a clear incentive to work.

 

Quote

Unless we all have lots more kids soon then this will only ever get worse

 

Well thats another issue with house prices >> people put off having kids till they can afford them >> We need more immigration >> hosue prices go up even further etc..

Edited June 2 by lost

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, lost said:

 

I think FPTP maybe dampens alot of that with alot of peole seeing voting for anyone apart from the two main parties as a  wasted vote. The european elections next week maybe a better indicator to how people in Europe are feeling about migration currently.

 

People in the UK? Well tories have been promising "ten of thousands" for at least a decade so I guess with Starmers promises this week they are happy to give labour a go.

yes but polling show that is less salient...although has been an uptick recently due to the boats thing and also big increase in overall numbers...but still nothing like was before and during brexit.

Across europe yes a lot of support for far right is immigration stuff, but also it is net zero stuff,...and also often happens during an economic downturn..

[steviewevie]

One thing is that if we are going to have high immigration than we have to have high investment in everything to keep up.