UK Politics

[maelzoid]

7 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Also...who'd be police during all this? must be bloody awful. Think they've shown great restraint considering.

 

Agree with this. Must be terrifying approaching the mob armed with bricks etc. I'm sure they've all been trained, but very few of them would have any real-world experience until now.

 

The irony is, if our government was as right-wing as these cretins wanted it to be, the police would be piling in with clubs flying and knock ten tons of sh*t out of them.

[Spuddhism]

45 minutes ago, maelzoid said:

I wonder how everyone else feels about this idea: I think the counter-protests we've seen should be avoided.

 

It greatly increases the chance of violence and puts extra strain on the police forces trying to deal with it. 

 

It is wholly reactionary, totally allowing the right-wing racist "protesters" to control the conversation, and can be interpreted as vindicating their stance by showing how seriously they are taken.

 

Wouldn't it be better to ignore them and allow their 'protests' to run their course in a vacuum, with only the police present?

 

The opposition demonstrations can occur at another time, allowing for better planning and safety.

Take your points but personally I think the racists should always face counter protests. But it is critical that the response is non-violent.

 

I'd like to think that the presence of a broad church of counter protesters can give those under threat some important and powerful reassurance, and also removes some of the sense of helplessness we can all feel. 

[steviewevie]

26 minutes ago, Spuddhism said:

But it is critical that the response is non-violent.

yeah, but that is the difficult bit....and then it just puts more pressure on the police to just keep the two groups apart. All becomes a bit football hooligan like.

[kaosmark2]

I know a few people who were in the Kill the Bill protests that got messy, and the while the radical left and anarchists absolutely have a violent streak and no concern about damaging property, one of my friends got shielded from an (unwarranted) beating from police and said she was really glad to have had them there to manage the situation, including some of the violent resistance to the police.

 

Bearing in mind the previous day the police had charged peacefully sitting protestors on horseback, so that day the more extreme lot turned up and punched the police when they were smacking journalists and peaceful protestors with riot shields.

 

And, toxic, obnoxious, and violent as the police are, they're still a league better than neo-nazis.

 

Maybe it's partially because I'm not white or fully white-passing, but I won't feel safe counter-protesting these racist thugs unless I know the more hardened antifa bunch will be there in case it does kick off.

Edited August 7 by kaosmark2

[Crazyfool01]

1 hour ago, maelzoid said:

I wonder how everyone else feels about this idea: I think the counter-protests we've seen should be avoided.

 

It greatly increases the chance of violence and puts extra strain on the police forces trying to deal with it. 

 

It is wholly reactionary, totally allowing the right-wing racist "protesters" to control the conversation, and can be interpreted as vindicating their stance by showing how seriously they are taken.

 

Wouldn't it be better to ignore them and allow their 'protests' to run their course in a vacuum, with only the police present?

 

The opposition demonstrations can occur at another time, allowing for better planning and safety.

in the space of 24 hrs ive changed my opinion on this , let the police deal with the rioters and not have to concern themselves with anyone peacefully protesting. , it might be quite easy to react to inflammatory stuff and make the situation harder for the police to deal with , let them protect whatever physical thing they have to. 24 hrs ago I was telling a friend to go but be careful and stay back from frontlines but the frontline can very quickly change so best avoided and let them blow themselves out . was supposed to be something here at midday but cant as yet see anything ... avoiding town centre for now anyway 

[steviewevie]

10 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

in the space of 24 hrs ive changed my opinion on this , let the police deal with the rioters and not have to concern themselves with anyone peacefully protesting. , it might be quite easy to react to inflammatory stuff and make the situation harder for the police to deal with , let them protect whatever physical thing they have to. 24 hrs ago I was telling a friend to go but be careful and stay back from frontlines but the frontline can very quickly change so best avoided and let them blow themselves out . was supposed to be something here at midday but cant as yet see anything ... avoiding town centre for now anyway 

yeah when I was in Manchester the other day there were loads of police surrounding the far right lot and then a load of police for the anti racist lot and a lot of effort just keeping the groups apart.

There is an anti racist demo/march thing in Manchester on Saturday which I don't think is timed to coincide with anything happening from the far right, might go to that (if it isn't raining or there isn't something good on tv or I can't be arsed etc).

 

I think the police know where all the planned stuff is because of Telegram channels being reported, and Starmer wants to crush any riots before they get going because it isn't a good look if seems out of control so they'll be all over it I reckon...so I'm inclined to agree, let the police deal with it.

Edited August 7 by steviewevie

[Spuddhism]

31 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

yeah, but that is the difficult bit....and then it just puts more pressure on the police to just keep the two groups apart. All becomes a bit football hooligan like.

Nah, it's really easy not to be violent. Anti racist protesters tend to be a very 'normal' bunch in the main and - as vocal as they are - generally look like they've never thrown a punch in their lives. If the far right continue their protests over the next few weeks, and assuming counter protests appear more frequently in response, we'll get to see how they behave. Really hope I'm not proven wrong, appreciate this is all much more heated than usual atm.

[steviewevie]

Just now, Spuddhism said:

Nah, it's really easy not to be violent. Anti racist protesters tend to be a very 'normal' bunch in the main and - as vocal as they are - generally look like they've never thrown a punch in their lives. If the far right continue their protests over the next few weeks, and assuming counter protests appear more frequently in response, we'll get to see how they behave. Really hope I'm not proven wrong, appreciate this is all much more heated than usual atm.

that is so easy to say. It just takes a few on the extreme end, and every group has them...to start retaliating and it's all go. If I was there and someone started smacking me and I'm in a situation I can't get out of I'm not sure I'm going to try and reason with them (I'd probably play dead).

[steviewevie]

...and also police are duty bound to protect any counter protesters from getting beaten up, as well as all the other stuff.

[Spuddhism]

4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

that is so easy to say. It just takes a few on the extreme end, and every group has them...to start retaliating and it's all go. If I was there and someone started smacking me and I'm in a situation I can't get out of I'm not sure I'm going to try and reason with them (I'd probably play dead).

I'm speaking from experience. The vast majority of people I've ever marched with were just ordinary folks. I've never seen any equivalence in behaviour between the two 'sides', and don't think the police need fear counter protests. 

[steviewevie]

4 minutes ago, Spuddhism said:

I'm speaking from experience. The vast majority of people I've ever marched with were just ordinary folks. I've never seen any equivalence in behaviour between the two 'sides', and don't think the police need fear counter protests. 

Doesn't mean there won't be any at these counter protest demos...some will be there for a fight...there already has been a few incidents across the country...nowhere near as bad and most people just want to protect who/whatever, but they're not all peace loving hippies.

And again, the police will have to use resources keeping groups apart instead of focusing on protecting hotels or whatever.

[Crazyfool01]

6 minutes ago, Spuddhism said:

I'm speaking from experience. The vast majority of people I've ever marched with were just ordinary folks. I've never seen any equivalence in behaviour between the two 'sides', and don't think the police need fear counter protests. 

There’s no equivalence in behaviour I agree but not being there removes a target for the aggression whether there’s a reaction or not . I’ve watched a fair few bits online where assaults have taken place where they wouldn’t have done if that counter protester wasn’t there . However I’ve seen the counter protests stop the riots become worse in a few circumstances by just purely a numbers thing . Difficult 

[kaosmark2]

5 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

There’s no equivalence in behaviour I agree but not being there removes a target for the aggression whether there’s a reaction or not . I’ve watched a fair few bits online where assaults have taken place where they wouldn’t have done if that counter protester wasn’t there . However I’ve seen the counter protests stop the riots become worse in a few circumstances by just purely a numbers thing . Difficult 

In Bristol counter-protestors stopped the racists attacking a migrant filled hotel, with the police not getting there for several hours:

 

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/amid-chaos-far-right-protests-9459421

 

The counter protestors saved asylum seeker's lives.

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, kaosmark2 said:

In Bristol counter-protestors stopped the racists attacking a migrant filled hotel, with the police not getting there for several hours:

 

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/amid-chaos-far-right-protests-9459421

 

The counter protestors saved asylum seeker's lives.

yes, but I think police and the surveillance lot are much more on top of it now...Starmer has done his COBRA thing and will want to show that they have control of the situation. We should not be relying on civilians to protect people from loony thugs, it should be the state doing it.

[steviewevie]

There is actually a counter thingy planned for near my work office in Cheadle this evening...but I'll be at home calling into a zoom work meeting otherwise I'd be there (not).

[steviewevie]

[steviewevie]

 

[kaosmark2]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

yes, but I think police and the surveillance lot are much more on top of it now...Starmer has done his COBRA thing and will want to show that they have control of the situation. We should not be relying on civilians to protect people from loony thugs, it should be the state doing it.

Personally, I don't trust the police to stop racist thugs, given how many police are racist thugs.

[Crazyfool01]

8 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

In Bristol counter-protestors stopped the racists attacking a migrant filled hotel, with the police not getting there for several hours:

 

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/amid-chaos-far-right-protests-9459421

 

The counter protestors saved asylum seeker's lives.

Yep absolutely that was one I was referring to . Although I thought the police responded more quickly than several hours 

[steviewevie]

Just now, kaosmark2 said:

Personally, I don't trust the police to stop racist thugs, given how many police are racist thugs.

ok...well..not sure even where to go with that...f**k da police etc.

[Spuddhism]

19 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

peace loving hippies

C'mon now. You don't have to be a peace loving hippy to join in. These days you can even get involved in counter protests if you're a benefits scrounger or you've got the woke mind virus.

 

Edit: peace not piece - hippies don't carry guns 🙂

Edited August 7 by Spuddhism

[Spuddhism]

7 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

We should not be relying on civilians to protect people from loony thugs, it should be the state doing it.

We can agree there. 

[steviewevie]

11 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

In Bristol counter-protestors stopped the racists attacking a migrant filled hotel, with the police not getting there for several hours:

 

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/amid-chaos-far-right-protests-9459421

 

The counter protestors saved asylum seeker's lives.

hold on, if you read that it kind of says the police were busy keeping the fash and anti-fash apart so didn't have resources to protect that hotel...?

[kaosmark2]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

ok...well..not sure even where to go with that...f**k da police etc.

Well when I suffered a racist assault the police ignored and dismissed my attempts to report it. I agree that it should be the police's job, however if asked who I'd trust to protect minorities, I would trust counter-protestors in Bristol over the police.

[kaosmark2]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

hold on, if you read that it kind of says the police were busy keeping the fash and anti-fash apart so didn't have resources to protect that hotel...?

Oh, it's been updated since I first read it.

 

The initial version had mentioned the racists charging at black people in castle park (I also saw videos from that journalist on twitter showing as such) and it kicking off, but it hadn't referenced resources/preparation for police as a reason for them not being at the hotel.