UK Politics

[Neil]

37 minutes ago, lazyred said:

Labour supporters don't like to acknowledge any of this. Leveling up was a big reason for the Tory majority and  not delivering it was a big reason they lost. Equally his supporters in the Tory party don't like his actual policies.

cos a lot was bullshit, like the new hospitals!his govt also announced a 1% rise for health workers! - guess you forgot that.

[Neil]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56313199

[kaosmark2]

4 hours ago, steviewevie said:

Boris Johnson's economic and social policies weren't actually that bad...levelling up, putting up taxes to pay for health and social care, keen on building infrastructure, pro immigration. Just a shame about all the other stuff.

The problem is there wasn't any actual policy to it. Just blather.

[Neil]

51 minutes ago, lazyred said:

Labour supporters don't like to acknowledge any of this. Leveling up was a big reason for the Tory majority and  not delivering it was a big reason they lost. Equally his supporters in the Tory party don't like his actual policies.

he worked ok only cos some people are suckers for bullshit!

[steviewevie]

57 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

The problem is there wasn't any actual policy to it. Just blather.

true...but he was only in office a few months and then covid hit...and we really got big state then

[steviewevie]

I still wouldn't rule out a return of Boris.

[steviewevie]

 

[lost]

I seem to remember the new hosptials were canned by Reeves, along with the stone henge tunnel and  of course winter fuel allowance a couple of months ago. Not there there is anything wrong with that that's government, theres a finite amount of resources and they have to pick and choose what they spend money on. If people are not happy then they vote them out at the next election.

 

The 22bn "black hole" statement may of been a mistake as it keeps getting dragged up now every time they commit any spending as it is today on the carbon capture.

Edited October 4 by lost

[kaosmark2]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

true...but he was only in office a few months and then covid hit...and we really got big state then

The thing is that he's never ever given any sh*t about policy. He's just a narcissist, or in his words an "ideas man", but unlike competent politicians, he doesn't follow up on his ideas by commissioning reports/experts and asking for help making them work, he just expects them to happen because he's declared it so. He didn't get anything done as Mayor of London either - he just claimed credit for projects started under Livingstone.

 

To give a comparison, Gove was very very effective about digging out details and finding experts to give him the information he needed to actually make decisions, and he did this in basically every brief. The biggest problem with his time in education is that the Academies project was based on tory thinktanks being more important to consult than teachers - in every other brief he had he was the most effective minister there's been in that position in the 10-24 era (and more effective than several new labour ministers in some of them). 

 

Under Major, quite a lot of Tory ministers were good at doing this. They committed to learning/understanding their brief and finding the best people to support them. Some ministers under Cameron were good at this. Hunt is also quite good at this - but Hunt's goal isn't be an effective small-state politician, it's to funnel money into his family's private healthcare investments.

 

By comparison, you have the likes of Chris Grayling, who is another lazy grifter who repeatedly failed upwards using connections and bluster.

 

Small c conservative politics is something that the Tories need to reclaim somehow - and it's worth emphasising that Starmer has largely taken that position. "A politics that treads lighter on people's lives" and trying to be quietly competent instead of overly charismatic.

 

Cameron portrayed himself as the friendly face of Tory economic competence - Bojo was meant to be "get Brexit done". May understood the "we're the Nasty Party" way to sell competence.

 

People will get fed up of Labour, or they'll make a big gaffe, and we will get the Tories again, but in the same way as Labour went through Corbyn and lurched more to their extreme and had the internal party strife, the Tories will (and probably have to) go through that. "members vs core voters" is a struggle all parties have.

[steviewevie]

10 minutes ago, lost said:

I seem to remember the new hosptials were canned by Reeves, along with the stone henge tunnel and  of course winter fuel allowance a couple of months ago. Not there there is anything wrong with that that's government, theres a finite amount of resources and they have to pick and choose what they spend money on. If people are not happy then they vote them out at the next election.

 

The 22bn "black hole" statement may of been a mistake as it keeps getting dragged up now every time they commit any spending as it is today on the carbon capture.

New hospitals to be reviewed, not necessarily canned.

[steviewevie]

5 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

The thing is that he's never ever given any sh*t about policy. He's just a narcissist, or in his words an "ideas man", but unlike competent politicians, he doesn't follow up on his ideas by commissioning reports/experts and asking for help making them work, he just expects them to happen because he's declared it so. He didn't get anything done as Mayor of London either - he just claimed credit for projects started under Livingstone.

 

To give a comparison, Gove was very very effective about digging out details and finding experts to give him the information he needed to actually make decisions, and he did this in basically every brief. The biggest problem with his time in education is that the Academies project was based on tory thinktanks being more important to consult than teachers - in every other brief he had he was the most effective minister there's been in that position in the 10-24 era (and more effective than several new labour ministers in some of them). 

 

Under Major, quite a lot of Tory ministers were good at doing this. They committed to learning/understanding their brief and finding the best people to support them. Some ministers under Cameron were good at this. Hunt is also quite good at this - but Hunt's goal isn't be an effective small-state politician, it's to funnel money into his family's private healthcare investments.

 

By comparison, you have the likes of Chris Grayling, who is another lazy grifter who repeatedly failed upwards using connections and bluster.

 

Small c conservative politics is something that the Tories need to reclaim somehow - and it's worth emphasising that Starmer has largely taken that position. "A politics that treads lighter on people's lives" and trying to be quietly competent instead of overly charismatic.

 

Cameron portrayed himself as the friendly face of Tory economic competence - Bojo was meant to be "get Brexit done". May understood the "we're the Nasty Party" way to sell competence.

 

People will get fed up of Labour, or they'll make a big gaffe, and we will get the Tories again, but in the same way as Labour went through Corbyn and lurched more to their extreme and had the internal party strife, the Tories will (and probably have to) go through that. "members vs core voters" is a struggle all parties have.

I think Cleverly will win. He's a nice guy, Jenrick isn't, he has that tory face. Badenoch is too much of a risk.

And then when Cleverly turns out to be sh*t Bojo will return via a bi-election sometime in 2027. It is written.

[kaosmark2]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

I think Cleverly will win. He's a nice guy, Jenrick isn't, he has that tory face. Badenoch is too much of a risk.

And then when Cleverly turns out to be sh*t Bojo will return via a bi-election sometime in 2027. It is written.

I think the members want Jenrick. I think the membership is too racist to vote either Badenoch or Cleverly despite Badenoch being the actual true believer in their policies.

 

Tugendthat is the one that I think would most appeal to the Tory voter base, but he looks done in terms of this leadership contest.

 

I can believe Bojo returning into politics, but I don't think it'll resonate with voters outside Labour f**king things up to Truss levels. Also he won't want to do the actual work.

[lost]

24 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

I think the membership is too racist to vote either Badenoch or Cleverly despite Badenoch being the actual true believer in their policies.

 

I don't really see any Ethno-nationalism coming from either the Tories or even Reform like we are seeing from the right wing parties in Europe, Badenoch has been leading all the polling until the recent interviews.

 

Thats not though to say it could easily change from entryism but looking at twitter its going to come from the young not the older traditional Tories. Those types though would also reject Tugendthat for being Jewish and even Jenrick for saying he wants the star of David on display at Uk airports.

Edited October 4 by lost

[steviewevie]

yeah, not sure can accuse the membership of being racist...but from some poll I saw they prioritised tory values over winning the next election so maybe it will be Jenrick or Badenoch depending who is in last two.

I am assuming it will be Cleverly vs Jenrick...and on paper they will pick Jenrick, but they also might go for nice guy Cleverly as long as he doesn't come across all woke socialist.

[pink_triangle]

I find it funny a load of people losing their sh*t about the Chagos islands when most probably hadn’t heard of them a few days ago.

[steviewevie]

[steviewevie]

Maybe another Falklands war will save Starmer like it did Thatcher?

Not sure we'd win this time though.

[lost]

52 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Maybe another Falklands war will save Starmer like it did Thatcher?

Not sure we'd win this time though.

 

I don't think we had a military base there last time but we do now, though didn't Milei describe Thatcher as one of his economic heros in the run up to the election and he actually won saying that. It shows what a state their economy was in.

[steviewevie]

 

[charlierc]

1 hour ago, lost said:

 

I don't think we had a military base there last time but we do now, though didn't Milei describe Thatcher as one of his economic heros in the run up to the election and he actually won saying that. It shows what a state their economy was in.

An inflation rate in excess of 100% is likely to make you consider an alternative option I guess.

[Neil]

On 10/4/2024 at 12:22 PM, steviewevie said:

I still wouldn't rule out a return of Boris.

his  ego demands it!

[steviewevie]

 

[steviewevie]

Wow

 

[Crazyfool01]

forced out by the media 😞 

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

forced out by the media 😞 

It has been pretty chaotic, and she seems to have pissed a lot of people off...but yeah certain newspapers and tories and civil servants have been after her from the start.

So.. a reset...