International Politics

[steviewevie]

Also...the fact that back in January the ICJ ruled that it was plausible that Israel was carrying out genocide and that Israel should do everything in their power to prevent genocide against the Gazans which Israel just completely ignored will likely be a factor.

But yes it may never conclude, there have been many accusations of genocide since 48, and as doogie says only 3 have been officially recognised.

[lazyred]

13 hours ago, mattiloy said:

Just make sure you remember this, when it finally goes to court and history confirms it as a genocide- you’ll have been here, defending a genocide, giving it the both sides treatment and downplaying it and I think you should ask yourself why that is.

The both sides treatment is from the ICC who issued a warrant against the leader of Hamas for murder, rape and kidnap. 

The warrant against Netanyahu is for starvation and murder. These relate to. withholding aid and specific incidents where civilians died. They are not against Isreal's right to use force to rescue people or remove Hamas to prevent further attacks. 

Neither warrant mentions genocide. 

 

13 hours ago, mattiloy said:

The thing about human rights is that everyone has the same ones. Neither you nor anyone else gets to decide the degree to which different people have them

No one here is saying anything else. 

[lazyred]

31 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Isreal is not trying to destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. 

Genocide would be intending to kill all Palestinians in Isreal and the West Bank.

[steviewevie]

5 minutes ago, lazyred said:

Isreal is not trying to destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. 

Genocide would be intending to kill all Palestinians in Isreal and the West Bank.

Not sure they can use that as an argument...not all Palestinians live in Gaza.

(plus, been plenty of atrocities in West Bank to throw in there if they want).

[lazyred]

14 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Not sure they can use that as an argument...not all Palestinians live in Gaza.

(plus, been plenty of atrocities in West Bank to throw in there if they want).

Atrocities yes, war crimes probably, genocide no. There is no intention to destroy all Palestinians. 

 

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, lazyred said:

Atrocities yes, war crimes probably, genocide no. There is no intention to destroy all Palestinians. 

 

Doesn't have to be all to fit the definition....in whole or in part.

And anyway, the group in this definition could be Gazans.

[lazyred]

15 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Doesn't have to be all to fit the definition....in whole or in part.

And anyway, the group in this definition could be Gazans.

The definition is destroy. If Hamas hadn't attacked on Oct 7 then Isreal would have carried on with containment. If Hamas stand down and  release the hostages Isreal would act differently. The fact that ceasefire negotiations are progressing shows Isreal will accept a solution other than killing everyone. 

If you want to accuse Isreal there is plenty of stuff to choose from. Using words like Genocide and Holocaust is a deliberate way of denying Isreal's right to exist. 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:46 PM by lazyred
spelling mistakes

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, lazyred said:

The definition is destroy. If Hamas hadn't attacked on Oct 7 then Isreal would have carried on with containment. If Hamas stand down and  release the hostages Isreal would act differently. The fact that ceasefire negotiations are progressing shows Isreal will accept a solution other than killing everyone. 

If you want to accuse Isreal there is plenty of stuff to choose from. Using words like Genocide and Holocaust is a deliberate way of denying Isreal's right to exist. 

 

ok, well...take that up with the ICJ. These are all excuses or reasons that will be given by Israel for the 45k dead Gazans and destruction of most of it's infrastructure and the limiting of aid getting in..we'll see what decision they make. Maybe they'll say it's all Hamas' fault.

[steviewevie]

https://x.com/hrw/status/1869609986222968873 

 

(when copy into here says x.com doesn't allow this tweet to be embedded which is kind of interesting)

 

More here

Israel’s Crime of Extermination, Acts of Genocide in Gaza | Human Rights Watch

Edited 15 hours ago by steviewevie

[Crazyfool01]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

https://x.com/hrw/status/1869609986222968873 

 

(when copy into here says x.com doesn't allow this tweet to be embedded which is kind of interesting)

 

More here

Israel’s Crime of Extermination, Acts of Genocide in Gaza | Human Rights Watch

Weird that … also tried to post it 😞 

[lost]

Sounds like the Trump administration is going to go after how US companies pay tax in Ireland over this israeli embassy stuff.

[steviewevie]

 

[steviewevie]

Putin just finished a 4 1/2 hour press conference. 😵

[Blisterpack]

On 12/18/2024 at 12:51 PM, steviewevie said:

ok, well...take that up with the ICJ. These are all excuses or reasons that will be given by Israel for the 45k dead Gazans and destruction of most of it's infrastructure and the limiting of aid getting in..we'll see what decision they make. Maybe they'll say it's all Hamas' fault.

This time last year there were just under 30k dead in Gaza according to Hamas. They were also saying that about 12k of those were ‘operatives’ though Israel (and the AP and Reuters tbf) were suggesting that they were understating that. Israel are suggesting the operative:civilian ratio is 1:2 whilst most observers put it closer 1:3. Either way it is close to being the lowest you will see in modern warfare and falls well short of anything even resembling genocide. Holocaust inversion is the refuge of the old deniers who were basically legislated out of expressing their vile views. 

[Blisterpack]

46 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Putin just finished a 4 1/2 hour press conference. 😵

He’s worse than McCartney

[Skip997]

43 minutes ago, Blisterpack said: Either way it is close to being the lowest you will see in modern warfare and falls well short of anything even resembling genocide. Holocaust inversion is the refuge of the old deniers who were basically legislated out of expressing their vile views. 

What a load of old nonsense. It’s clearly genocide. It was always the plan once Hamas gave them the excuse. Have you seen the pre and post bombing pictures of Rafa? Have a look and come up with an reason for such destruction 

[Skip997]

On 12/18/2024 at 12:45 PM, lazyred said:

The definition is destroy. If Hamas hadn't attacked on Oct 7 then Isreal would have carried on with containment. If Hamas stand down and  release the hostages Isreal would act differently. The fact that ceasefire negotiations are progressing shows Isreal will accept a solution other than killing everyone. 

If you want to accuse Isreal there is plenty of stuff to choose from. Using words like Genocide and Holocaust is a deliberate way of denying Isreal's right to exist. 

 

More nonsense.

 

The weaponisation of anti semitism is working a treat 

[steviewevie]

54 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

This time last year there were just under 30k dead in Gaza according to Hamas. They were also saying that about 12k of those were ‘operatives’ though Israel (and the AP and Reuters tbf) were suggesting that they were understating that. Israel are suggesting the operative:civilian ratio is 1:2 whilst most observers put it closer 1:3. Either way it is close to being the lowest you will see in modern warfare and falls well short of anything even resembling genocide. Holocaust inversion is the refuge of the old deniers who were basically legislated out of expressing their vile views. 

It's not really about numbers, the definition is destroy all or part of the group. It's not just the amount of deaths, it is the destruction of homes, schools, hospitals, infrastructure, and it is the cutting off of basic needs for life like water and electricity and limiting aid that can get in.

Anyway, seeing as how contested it is, maybe ICJ will never actually rule either way.

[Blisterpack]

5 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

It's not really about numbers, the definition is destroy all or part of the group. It's not just the amount of deaths, it is the destruction of homes, schools, hospitals, infrastructure, and it is the cutting off of basic needs for life like water and electricity and limiting aid that can get in.

Anyway, seeing as how contested it is, maybe ICJ will never actually rule either way.

Did we commit genocide in Dresden? It’s war, people get killed. 
There are better, more in depth, articles but this is a decent effort at tackling an issue that really does impact on my Jewish friends.

 

https://shura.shu.ac.uk/10260/3/Klaff_Holocaust_Inversion_and_contemporary_antisemitism.pdf

[Blisterpack]

Just now, Blisterpack said:

Did we commit genocide in Dresden? It’s war, people get killed. 
There are better, more in depth, articles but this is a decent effort at tackling an issue that really does impact on my Jewish friends.

 

https://shura.shu.ac.uk/10260/3/Klaff_Holocaust_Inversion_and_contemporary_antisemitism.pdf

By the way, I think anyone who supports Netanyahu’s approach to this war is deluded. It’s not genocide but there are degrees of total incompetence from him. Hamas has succeeded in exposing his limits on security. 

[Skip997]

8 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

Did we commit genocide in Dresden? It’s war, people get killed. 
 

FFS, with an attitude like this, which far too many have, we’ve got no chance of ever seeing peace. 
 

The bombing of Dresden was a disgrace, but it’s not comparable to the planned, systematic and cynical destruction of the people of Gaza. 

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

Did we commit genocide in Dresden? It’s war, people get killed. 
There are better, more in depth, articles but this is a decent effort at tackling an issue that really does impact on my Jewish friends.

 

https://shura.shu.ac.uk/10260/3/Klaff_Holocaust_Inversion_and_contemporary_antisemitism.pdf

Probably, but genocide wasn't defined then.

I mean, history is littered with genocides...but following what happened to the Jews by the Nazis the legal definition was determined to help prevent it ever happening again....and it can be argued that Israel's conduct against the people of Gaza fits that definition. It is nothing like the holocaust, a whole other level, but this holocaust inversion thing still does not make Israel immune from such accusations.

[Blisterpack]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

Probably, but genocide wasn't defined then.

I mean, history is littered with genocides...but following what happened to the Jews by the Nazis the legal definition was determined to help prevent it ever happening again....and it can be argued that Israel's conduct against the people of Gaza fits that definition. It is nothing like the holocaust, a whole other level, but this holocaust inversion thing still does not make Israel immune from such accusations.

I’d say the ratio of operative:civilian deaths, the fact that the numbers killed in 2024 are around 15k - many of whom will be combatants, including high profile ones- means that it is a war. One that should have ended some time ago and hasn’t for reasons that suit both sides, but a war nevertheless. 

[Blisterpack]

12 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

FFS, with an attitude like this, which far too many have, we’ve got no chance of ever seeing peace. 
 

The bombing of Dresden was a disgrace, but it’s not comparable to the planned, systematic and cynical destruction of the people of Gaza. 

Human beings have never lived in peace sadly. War does shape the world. I wish that was not the case but there you go. 

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

I’d say the ratio of operative:civilian deaths, the fact that the numbers killed in 2024 are around 15k - many of whom will be combatants, including high profile ones- means that it is a war. One that should have ended some time ago and hasn’t for reasons that suit both sides, but a war nevertheless. 

Come on...Palestine is not a state, and Gaza definitely isn't...they are partly controlled and partly occupied by Israel.  I mean Hamas was partly supported by Israel because they didn't want a two state solution and helped to keep Gaza and West Bank separate, divide and conquer.

Yes Hamas carried out appalling atrocities and took hostages for reasons we may never know...but that does not give Israel the right to cut off water and electricity and to limit aid, it does not give them the right to bomb hospitals with patients in them because there might be Hamas in there, it does not give them the right to bomb and burn refugee sites full of people who have been told to move there by Israel. 

I get that it is a difficult problem for Netanyahu set up by Hamas, I get the history, but none of that excuses the response...which is still going on but the world has got bored of it.