International Politics

[Skip997]

9 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

I’d say the ratio of operative:civilian deaths, the fact that the numbers killed in 2024 are around 15k - many of whom will be combatants, including high profile ones- means that it is a war. One that should have ended some time ago and hasn’t for reasons that suit both sides, but a war nevertheless. 

15k? 
 

Civilians or combatants? Either way I think this figure is false. 

[Skip997]

2 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

Human beings have never lived in peace sadly. War does shape the world. I wish that was not the case but there you go. 

And here we go again. We’ve always had war so we always will.

 

Was it Joan Baez that said something along the lines of “if killing is natural, then why do men have to be trained to kill?”

[Blisterpack]

13 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

15k? 
 

Civilians or combatants? Either way I think this figure is false. 

Just checked. This time last year the figure was 29k. Now 47, so yes you are right it is 18k this year, not 15k. 
combatant deaths are difficult to tell overall, only Hamas knows for sure really but even the UN says it is at least 18k but likely more. 

[Blisterpack]

Just now, Blisterpack said:

Just checked. This time last year the figure was 29k. Now 47, so yes you are right it is 18k this year, not 15k. 
combatant deaths are difficult to tell overall, only Hamas knows for sure really but even the UN says it is at least 18k but likely more. 

The 47k is the overall figure for fatalities - Hamas figures. 

[Blisterpack]

46 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

And here we go again. We’ve always had war so we always will.

 

Was it Joan Baez that said something along the lines of “if killing is natural, then why do men have to be trained to kill?”

It’s a sad inevitability. I don’t like it any more than you. 

[Skip997]

Just now, Blisterpack said:

It’s a sad inevitability. I don’t like it any more than you. 

It’s only an “inevitability” because we allow it to be so.

 

”what if war broke out and no one turned up” Two Tribes - Frankie Goes to Hollywood 

[Blisterpack]

4 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

It’s only an “inevitability” because we allow it to be so.

 

”what if war broke out and no one turned up” Two Tribes - Frankie Goes to Hollywood 

Large parts of the Middle East were forged from 20th century wars. UAE, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain…. None existed in 1900. Only the Jewish one seems to get people’s backs up for some reason. The one where 50% of the worlds Jews live and which has the absolute support of over 90% of those Jews who live elsewhere. 

[Skip997]

2 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

Large parts of the Middle East were forged from 20th century wars. UAE, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain…. None existed in 1900. Only the Jewish one seems to get people’s backs up for some reason. The one where 50% of the worlds Jews live and which has the absolute support of over 90% of those Jews who live elsewhere. 

Where did that come from?

 

🧐

[steviewevie]

23 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

Large parts of the Middle East were forged from 20th century wars. UAE, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain…. None existed in 1900. Only the Jewish one seems to get people’s backs up for some reason. The one where 50% of the worlds Jews live and which has the absolute support of over 90% of those Jews who live elsewhere. 

This is all true...and it is a particular issue with Israel...but again again it does not make them immune from any accusation of war crimes or genocide. 

[Blisterpack]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

This is all true...and it is a particular issue with Israel...but again again it does not make them immune from any accusation of war crimes or genocide. 

I agree. Previous Israeli leaders have been more conciliatory and open to negotiation with their neighbours than Netanyahu though and they have also faced constant attack from Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis etc as well as facing the existential threat to their nation from Iran. They have had to resist and fight back and keep their people safe. I often wonder how their critics think they should do it. It’s urban warfare, fighting an enemy with no uniform. As I say, I think Netanyahu have been shown up as a poor military strategist and has been at the wheel for the worst breach of security in the history of Israel. He is useless but left wing Israeli leaders have had no success in dealing with their enemies either. Calling them

all ‘genocidal’ makes no sense though, and Netanyahu isn’t the first to be called it. 

[steviewevie]

35 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

I agree. Previous Israeli leaders have been more conciliatory and open to negotiation with their neighbours than Netanyahu though and they have also faced constant attack from Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis etc as well as facing the existential threat to their nation from Iran. They have had to resist and fight back and keep their people safe. I often wonder how their critics think they should do it. It’s urban warfare, fighting an enemy with no uniform. As I say, I think Netanyahu have been shown up as a poor military strategist and has been at the wheel for the worst breach of security in the history of Israel. He is useless but left wing Israeli leaders have had no success in dealing with their enemies either. Calling them

all ‘genocidal’ makes no sense though, and Netanyahu isn’t the first to be called it. 

Maybe accept that Palestinians deserve some self determination would be a start... don't support a terrorist group just because they aren't Fatah.. do better at keeping borders secure...and realise that you can't just bomb and kill away the problem.

[Blisterpack]

5 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Maybe accept that Palestinians deserve some self determination would be a start... don't support a terrorist group just because they aren't Fatah.. do better at keeping borders secure...and realise that you can't just bomb and kill away the problem.

There have been several attempts at finding a framework that involves Palestinian self-determination. Begin, Rabin, Barak… all had a go with the support of the Israeli people. Ultimately it required recognition of the Israeli state and the Arab leaders just couldn’t do it. I think they will now but it has taken bloodshed that they shouldn’t have allowed. 

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

There have been several attempts at finding a framework that involves Palestinian self-determination. Begin, Rabin, Barak… all had a go with the support of the Israeli people. Ultimately it required recognition of the Israeli state and the Arab leaders just couldn’t do it. I think they will now but it has taken bloodshed that they shouldn’t have allowed. 

Yeah extremists from both sides always banjaxed it...and now they're in charge. Don't think any closer to a Palestinian state, seems harder than ever. Gaza is wrecked, West Bank a mess.

[Blisterpack]

10 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Yeah extremists from both sides always banjaxed it...and now they're in charge. Don't think any closer to a Palestinian state, seems harder than ever. Gaza is wrecked, West Bank a mess.

I actually think it’s close. Netanyahu will not be re-elected and the rest of the Middle East is fed up of conflict. And Iran is losing influence. ‘Peace’ is a stretch but I think actual conflict will end soon. And Trump will take credit. 

[steviewevie]

7 hours ago, Blisterpack said:

I actually think it’s close. Netanyahu will not be re-elected and the rest of the Middle East is fed up of conflict. And Iran is losing influence. ‘Peace’ is a stretch but I think actual conflict will end soon. And Trump will take credit. 

yes may well be a ceasefire of sorts...but what comes after. Gaza needs to be rebuilt, who's paying for that? Big question is what comes next. Do Hamas retain control? Does Israel stay in Gaza? As for a Palestinian state, I don't know. Hamas more popular than Fatah in West Bank, who will lead Palestine? People in Israel want to expand settlements, expand Israel.  Maybe something can be done with Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, UAE etc..maybe some part of any Abraham accords deal under Trump. Saudi may want a deal, but a roadmap to Palestinian statehood might be part of it. 

I just think the war may end, but life will remain too sh*t and intolerable for many Palestinians.

[steviewevie]

Subject change...US govt close to shutdown over some spending bill...and apparently Musk has been throwing his significant weight behind opposing the bill.

Musk has way too much power, nationally and internationally. When Trump spoke to Zelensky Musk was with him. Musk met with Iranian ambassador recently. Musk has been talking to Putin. Musk has his eyes set on next UK election wanting to remove Starmer and help Reform.

Not sure what can be done about it, but something should be done about it. He is a global oligarch.

[steviewevie]

Enjoy. 🙂

Defining genocide: how a rift over Gaza sparked a crisis among scholars | US universities | The Guardian

[Skip997]

2 hours ago, steviewevie said:

Enjoy. 🙂

Defining genocide: how a rift over Gaza sparked a crisis among scholars | US universities | The Guardian

“The idea that the Holocaust is unique, and Jews are unique, and Israel is unique, the exceptional status of Israel, is foundational to Holocaust and genocide studies,” said Segal, whose criticism of Israel led the University of Minnesota to withdraw an offer it had made him to lead its Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies.
 

And here lies the crux of the problem. 

[Looother]

20 hours ago, Skip997 said:

What a load of old nonsense. It’s clearly genocide. It was always the plan once Hamas gave them the excuse. Have you seen the pre and post bombing pictures of Rafa? Have a look and come up with an reason for such destruction 

 

Some people are completely obsessed with the use of this word. The same people who love calling Israel Nazis. Many of these same people actively celebrated an explicitly genocidal organisation committing an obvious act of genocide on 7/10/23, so can't argue that they are against genocide at all. 

 

The worst thing about it is that it's counterproductive. You end up with arguments about nomenclature that are a complete distraction from the issue. They allow people on one side of the argument to write the other side off as antisemites, and the other to write off the first as Zionist shills, when in large part neither are either.

 

Organisations like Amnesty International produce lengthy reports designed to show how what is happening in Gaza can somehow, with a little twisting, still be defined as genocide. It genuinely puzzles me. It's not as if Israel haven't done and are not currently doing terrible things in Gaza - the destruction of homes, neighbourhoods, the means of food production, access to safe water, forced and repeated relocation. This week there was this, for example: https://archive.ph/J63LD. There's enough to fight without constantly scrapping over the (ab)use of one word.

 

(I really have tried to understand why people are so absolutely indignant about using this word. According to the Gaza health ministry/Hamas, including combatants around 0.3% of the population of Gaza has been killed in the last six months (sources: this, this and, though not ideal, this), and maybe 2% since 7/10/23. This is a lot of human life, I don't want to minimise it, but it is absolutely clear that there has been no attempt to deliberately murder the people of Gaza in entirety. It is also lazy and ludicrous to blame this loss of life only on Israel. Obviously Israel being guilty of genocide would be helpful for those who argue against the existence of Israel in the first place - perhaps they're engaged in a grotesque kind of wishful thinking?)

[steviewevie]

42 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

“The idea that the Holocaust is unique, and Jews are unique, and Israel is unique, the exceptional status of Israel, is foundational to Holocaust and genocide studies,” said Segal, whose criticism of Israel led the University of Minnesota to withdraw an offer it had made him to lead its Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies.
 

And here lies the crux of the problem. 

Holocaust is kind of unique?

[steviewevie]

Thing with the term genocide, if Israel are found to have committed it by ICJ, then what? I mean, Israel won't like it, US will condemn it, many will celebrate it, but there wouldn't be any punishment would there? It wouldn't necessarily stop Israel?  Would kind of show the whole thing to be toothless...which is one reason they might not rule it.

[steviewevie]

4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Holocaust is kind of unique?

and actually Israel is king of unique, how and why it was set up (by UN).

[steviewevie]

17 minutes ago, Looother said:

 

Some people are completely obsessed with the use of this word. The same people who love calling Israel Nazis. Many of these same people actively celebrated an explicitly genocidal organisation committing an obvious act of genocide on 7/10/23, so can't argue that they are against genocide at all. 

 

The worst thing about it is that it's counterproductive. You end up with arguments about nomenclature that are a complete distraction from the issue. They allow people on one side of the argument to write the other side off as antisemites, and the other to write off the first as Zionist shills, when in large part neither are either.

 

Organisations like Amnesty International produce lengthy reports designed to show how what is happening in Gaza can somehow, with a little twisting, still be defined as genocide. It genuinely puzzles me. It's not as if Israel haven't done and are not currently doing terrible things in Gaza - the destruction of homes, neighbourhoods, the means of food production, access to safe water, forced and repeated relocation. This week there was this, for example: https://archive.ph/J63LD. There's enough to fight without constantly scrapping over the (ab)use of one word.

 

(I really have tried to understand why people are so absolutely indignant about using this word. According to the Gaza health ministry/Hamas, including combatants around 0.3% of the population of Gaza has been killed in the last six months (sources: this, this and, though not ideal, this), and maybe 2% since 7/10/23. This is a lot of human life, I don't want to minimise it, but it is absolutely clear that there has been no attempt to deliberately murder the people of Gaza in entirety. It is also lazy and ludicrous to blame this loss of life only on Israel. Obviously Israel being guilty of genocide would be helpful for those who argue against the existence of Israel in the first place - perhaps they're engaged in a grotesque kind of wishful thinking?)

I think initial reason for South Africa bringing this up was to maybe make Israel stop...that is what ICJ tried to do too by asking Israel to avoid genocidal acts or whatever, but ultimately it has no teeth, especially when Israel, US and others don't recognise it and can just ignore it.

Edited 2 hours ago by steviewevie

[Looother]

5 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I think initial reason for South Africa bringing this up was to maybe make Israel stop...that is what ICJ tried to do too by asking Israel to avoid genocidal acts or whatever, but ultimately it has no teeth, especially when Israel, US and others don't recognise it and can just ignore it.

 

Seems like odd logic, but it's possible. It's been really counterproductive, though - the accusation was ludicrous enough that Netanyahu could spin it as proof that the world's against them, that the ICJ is broken and can be ignored, and he ends up if anything emboldened and with his position entrenched.

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, Looother said:

 

Seems like odd logic, but it's possible. It's been really counterproductive, though - the accusation was ludicrous enough that Netanyahu could spin it as proof that the world's against them, that the ICJ is broken and can be ignored, and he ends up if anything emboldened and with his position entrenched.

accusation was not ludicrous at all...ICJ said plausible and will continue to investigate whether what has been happening can be seen as genocide.

If same was happening to a european country I very much think people would be also shouting genocide, and something would get done about it.

Yes people like to throw the term at Israel because of their history, but that does not make them immune of the accusation. When you are bombing places where civilians live, bombing hospitals, schools and refugee camps, when you are cutting off supplies, limiting aid, creating famine...and then you listen to what various Israeli leaders have said including the president...then yes it definitely could be ruled as genocide.