International Politics

[Neil]

4 minutes ago, 1986 said:

And Palestinian civilians have no choice but to accept how things are already. It's Israel's that keep taking more. 

they have no choice but to go along with the situation, that's not the same as accepting it. 

[1986]

11 minutes ago, lazyred said:

Sadly some self styled progressives celebrated on Oct 7th and continue to justify what happened.

I'm sure they did, not here to deny any type of existing prejudice, that's can be as bad as the prejudice itself.

 

11 minutes ago, lazyred said:

The ICJ decision in the case brought by South Africa did not find that Israel had committed genocide. As far as I can tell the apartheid accusation is from a Human Rights Watch report that is specific to the West Bank not the Israeli State. Apartheid is a loaded word. I do not believe conditions for Palestinians are the same as for Black South Africans. The actions of each side provokes the other to escalate things. We need a process that lower tensions not increases them but the Palestinians have their to play in building confidence.

Last I heard South Africa won the decision to be able to bring Israel to charges/evidence to prove genocide. Which in itself is a big win and they still plan to do. All ceremonial I'm sure cus its not like Israel will see any repercussions. Maybe you're more educated than me here but if one of the populations aren't allowed on certain streets, live under checkpoint blockade, have their rights restricted and are generally second class citizens is their a massive difference? Not out to demean black South Africans, genuine question.

 

11 minutes ago, lazyred said:

Just untrue. There have been repeated deals offered and rejected. There have also been repeated wars against Israel.

Probably bad wording on my part, I'll apologise retract that one. Though whether any deals offered showed any benefit to Palestinians I'd be interested to know.

Edited May 13 by 1986

[steviewevie]

10 minutes ago, 1986 said:

And Palestinian civilians have no choice but to accept how things are already. It's Israel's that keep taking more. 

Didn't Israel force out Israeli settlers from Gaza and remove it's military to the border...and then Gazans voted for Hamas and here we are...?

[lost]

Aren't there many arabs living and working in Israel and many also crossed the border for work each day before oct 7th? This is where I don't get the genocide claims. The Jews living in Nazi Germany didn't get off due to not living in lands that Germany invaded.

[steviewevie]

10 minutes ago, 1986 said:

Last I heard South Africa won the decision to be able to bring Israel to charges/evidence to prove genocide. Which in itself is a big win and they still plan to do. All ceremonial I'm sure cus its not like Israel will see any repercussions. Maybe you're more educated than me here but if one of the populations aren't allowed on certain streets, live under checkpoint blockade, have their rights restricted and are generally second class citizens is their a massive difference? Not out to demean black South Africans, genuine question.

 

 

 

With this apartheid thing, is it referring to Palestinians living in West Bank, Gaza, or Israel, or all of it?

Edited May 13 by steviewevie

[Neil]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

Didn't Israel force out Israeli settlers from Gaza and remove it's military to the border...and then Gazans voted for Hamas and here we are...?

yes, but many of the Palestinians in Gaza Israel had let back in from Tunisia, Jordan and Lebanon

[Neil]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

 

 

With this apartheid thing, it it referring to Palestinians living in West Bank, Gaza, or Israel, or all of it?

possibly all of it, cos Palestinians are not equal in how the law is enacted,  and cannot expect protection from the law.

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, lost said:

Aren't there many arabs living and working in Israel and many also crossed the border for work each day before oct 7th? This is where I don't get the genocide claims. The Jews living in Nazi Germany didn't get off due to not living in lands that Germany invaded.

Not all genocides are the same. It is open to interpretation. This will probably be debated to the end of time, but I think a lot of people have already decided whether it can be called genocide or not. It is kind of loaded here because the term was created after the holocaust, so Jews might find it doubly offensive, and some do like to throw this stuff at Israel (genocide, holocaust, nazis etc)...but at the same time, if it is genocide then it should be called it.

[lazyred]

6 minutes ago, 1986 said:

Maybe you're more educated than me here but if one of the populations aren't allowed on certain streets, live under checkpoint blockade, have their rights restricted and are generally second class citizens is their a massive difference

I have no knowledge beyond what is reported in the UK broadsheets and TV. My understanding is that the repression is linked to Palestinian activity. I equate it to what we did in Northern Ireland during the troubles where we had road blocks, "peace" walls, mass surveillance and illegal acts by our forces. Settling the West Bank is another matter, that is illegal and counter productive.

[lost]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Not all genocides are the same. It is open to interpretation.

 

hmm watering it down does come across as a bit dodgy

 

genos = Race

cide = to kill

 

an attempt to kill an entire race.

 

 

[steviewevie]

22 minutes ago, lost said:

 

hmm watering it down does come across as a bit dodgy

 

genos = Race

cide = to kill

 

an attempt to kill an entire race.

 

 

 

from wikipedia...

In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly.

 

So Israel can argue they're going after Hamas only...but then the prosecution would just say look at the actual evidence and what some people in the Israeli government have said.....

Edited May 13 by steviewevie

[steviewevie]

but also...human history is full of genocides...

[lost]

5 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

 

from wikipedia...

In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly.

 

So Israel can argue their going after Hamas only...but then the prosecution would just say look at the actual evidence and what some people in the Israeli government have said.....

 

Then every war is now genocide then? Uk commited genocide in Germany US in Japan, Iraq etc.. Suddenly the term is meaningless.

 

IMO we have had probably 3 in the last century Germany, Rwanda and Kosovo.

[Neil]

19 minutes ago, lost said:

 

hmm watering it down does come across as a bit dodgy

 

genos = Race

cide = to kill

 

an attempt to kill an entire race.

i struggle to see it as that, because if it was really that Israel could be doing it a lot better than it is (its not a very good attempt!).and unlike with other genocides Israel doesn't have to filter out that race, they're already separated.

Edited May 13 by Neil

[steviewevie]

12 minutes ago, lost said:

 

Then every war is now genocide then? Uk commited genocide in Germany US in Japan, Iraq etc.. Suddenly the term is meaningless.

 

IMO we have had probably 3 in the last century Germany, Rwanda and Kosovo.

I think the idea is destroying a group/race/culture...did UK set out to kill or destroy the German race, did US set out to destroy the Japanese race, or all Iraqis? They didn't.

So, then you get the question are Israeli's trying to destroy or kill all Gazans?

Edited May 13 by steviewevie

[lost]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I think the idea is destroying a group/race culture...did UK set out to kill or destroy the German race, did US set out to destroy the Japanese race, or all Iraqis? They didn't.

So, then you get the question are Israeli's trying to destroy or kill all Gazans?

 

Finally we are there!! The answer is no because as I've said they could of picked off the ones crossing to work in Israel each day.

Edited May 13 by lost

[steviewevie]

4 minutes ago, lost said:

 

Finally we are there!! The answer is no because as I've said they could of picked off the ones crossing to work in Israel each day.

yeah, but this would be since Oct 7th...no one is crossing to work in Israel anymore.

[lost]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

yeah, but this would be since Oct 7th...no one is crossing to work in Israel anymore.

 

And as I always said a number have still stayed .Isn't it 20% of israel is palestinian  arab?

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, lost said:

 

And as I always said a number have still stayed .Isn't it 20% of israel is palestinian  arab?

 

yes, so I assume the group wouldn't be all Palestinians, it would be Gazans. Not sure about how Palestinian arabs in Israel are treated, I think they have all the same rights as Israeli Jews, but probably face prejudices. You don't ever see them protesting about the war in Gaza.

[steviewevie]

I guess they are not called palestinians if they're citizens of Israel....but Israeli Arabs.

[steviewevie]

5 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I guess they are not called palestinians if they're citizens of Israel....but Israeli Arabs.

 

actually just read a bit on wikipedia and some would definitely preferred to be called Palestinians!

Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia

[lost]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

 

actually just read a bit on wikipedia and some would definitely preferred to be called Palestinians!

Arab citizens of Israel - Wikipedia

 

There you go. The ones being killed are the ones living where hamas live there is no concerted effort to wipe them all out.

[steviewevie]

35 minutes ago, Neil said:

i struggle to see it as that, because if it was really that Israel could be doing it a lot better than it is (its not a very good attempt!).and unlike with other genocides Israel doesn't have to filter out that race, they're already separated.

well there's 35k dead now, but it isn't just the deaths, it is the injuries, the destruction of infrastructure, of people's homes, of schools, colleges and universities, of hospitals, and then the turning off of electricity, water, aid. It all adds up. Are they doing this to get Hamas, or just as a collective punishment of Gazans?

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, lost said:

 

There you go. The ones being killed are the ones living where hamas live there is no concerted effort to wipe them all out.

That is the Israeli argument. 

But then some Israeli leaders have said things...calling them human animals etc....whilst at same time destroying them. 

[lost]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

That is the Israeli argument. 

But then some Israeli leaders have said things...calling them human animals etc....whilst at same time destroying them. 

 

Like Russians calling Ukranians Nazi's or Ukranians calling Russians Orc's. War isn't nice.