Things can only get better

[Colorblindjames]

9 minutes ago, stuie said:

^This. 

And even if nothing changes at all for years, having a government that doesn’t stoke hatred and seek to divide us and constantly gaslight us will be good for the country. 

Starmer is a compulsive liar IMO. He lied to get elected leader and has been gaslighting us about it ever since. 

[OBface]

10 minutes ago, stuie said:

^This. 

And even if nothing changes at all for years, having a government that doesn’t stoke hatred and seek to divide us and constantly gaslight us will be good for the country. 

Not sure that's guaranteed with Starmer given his track record.

[Tiesto13]

1 hour ago, al_coholic said:

Referring directly to the topic title, and I am in no way endorsing the Conservatives, but I am curious as to what "Things" people think are going to get better after Labour win. 

 

Starmers In Tray will be huge and dealing with Israel, Russia and migration will be high on the list. I also don't think there is much cash around to fix the multitude of socio-economic issues we have in this country. 

 

So in my opinion I don't think "Things" are going to get a lot better for many months or possibly years. But it will be interesting to find out. 

yeah it will be years before things get better. But if you look at the last time we were in a similar situation, 1997, they did get better, although it was a slow process over three parliaments. Don’t know if you’ve seen the clip of someone on question time tearing Tony Blair a new one because they wanted more flexibility when booking a GP appointment rather than having to have one with 48 hours. 
 

Likewise look at John Burn-Murdoch’s analysis of homelessness. What happened in 2010 I wonder?

 

https://x.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1791412165888352746

 

Brown and Blair whilst not the most progressive or radical consistently did things that improved the welfare state. Whether that was taking big steps to reduce child poverty, working tax credits, funding the nhs halfway properly etc. All of these things made the country a better place for the vast majority. And have been steadily undone by the tories. And what do the tories have to show for it. Local and central government finances that are in a disastrous state, an economy that has pretty much flatlined for 14 years, a bunch of privatised industries that have pillaged/polluted country, a succession of botched infrastructure projects and a general feeling of distaste and distrust in politics. 

Starmer again isn’t the most radical or progressive. But to me, the empirical evidence in my lifetime is clear. Things get significantly better for the majority over time with a Labour government and they get significantly worse with a Tory government. 

[Crazyfool01]

Just now, Colorblindjames said:

Starmer is a compulsive liar IMO. He lied to get elected leader and has been gaslighting us about it ever since. 

but still 100 times better than the current lot ... sad thing with electoral system we have is that its him or Tory's under whatever leader they decide on that month ..... until electoral reform happens that what we get . Things arent perfect by a long shot in what he believes in my opinion but theres no choice , so im voting tactically to get this corrupt divisive lot out 

[Blisterpack]

21 minutes ago, Ell99 said:

 

Myself and my girlfriend are both Jewish and will be attending too. We are in a big group of both Jews and non Jews and agree that it is a very sensitive topic.

 

As one poster rightly mentions above, lots of Jews do attend the Pro-Palestinian marches and do so feeling very comfortable within the Jewish-bloc there. As they are rightly marching for and advocating for peace - a foundation of the Jewish religion. However, many Jews that I know, would not feel comfortable partaking. 

 

Myself and mf GF have naturally been talking a lot about what Glastonbury will be like this year. I totally expect there to be a lot of Palestinian flags and mentions of the War by performers. Now - this is the point that is difficult for non-Jews to completely understand or appreciate, and something that I have found it hard to articulate to my non-Jewish friends but I will give it a go:

 

When I see throngs of people with Palestinian flags and chanting "free Palestine" - sentiments that I 100% agree with and would advocate for a two state solution. It does still trigger something within me and gives me a viceral reaction in my gut. This has happened a few times at gigs in the last 6 months when chants from the crowd or performers have come out of the blue and taken my attention away from the music.

 

As people will have no doubt seen levels of anti-semitism have drastically risen since Oct 7th, and I know that the rational part of me is telling me that the vast majority of these people on the marches, don't have anything against Jewish people. However, the sad fact is, that some do have within them, even if it is a slight unconscious bias, traits of anti-semitism. I believe that this is because the complexity of the situation - being anti the Israeli government, questioning the formation of the state of Israel, the fact that these war-mongering people are all Jewish - this cocktail gets mixed up and can lead anti-Israel sentiments to become anti-Jewish.

 

The crux of it is, that for me, when I ask myself if I would feel comfortable pronouncing to these people that I am Jewish, I would have some trepidation. It is a feeling of isolation which is horrible to have. As a liberal person that has been brought up in London, feeling a sense of alienation is really unpleasant and not something that I ever thought I would have to contend with as a Jew. 

 

I still can't wait for Glastonbury, will have a brilliant time - but I know these slight feelings of unease will crop up, and that applies for several Jews that I know attending the festival. And may I reiterate - that is despite the fact that we all maintain the sentiments that we want this war over, that the innocent killing of Palestinian's is abysmal, but also not forgetting that the hostages held in Gaza must be released, and that the atrocities of Oct 7th cannot be forgotten, especially for a people who have historically suffered so greatly.  

I have tried to articulate these sentiments on behalf of my friends on several occasions and I've probably fallen well short, but you have done so quite beautifully here on behalf of yourself and your friends. I really do hope you have a wonderful time. 

[Crazyfool01]

 

[Looother]

I've written previously about my concerns that some things at Glasto this year would make me uncomfortable as a Jewish attendee. Now the festival is happening a week before the election I'm counting myself lucky - at least I'm not a Tory.

 

I'm a bit uneasy about this Labour party. I've seen little from them that inspires me, or that feels genuinely gamechanging. Starmer is an awkward salesman. He presented himself as one thing to win the votes of left-wingers in the Labour party, and he's presenting himself as another thing to win the votes of Brexit supporters and regretful Tory voters. I understand why he's doing that, politically, but it forces the questions: who is he really? And what that he has said can we trust to be true?

 

I don't know the answers, but I've read about his background, his family and the work he did before becoming a politician. For now, that'll do. I'm less worried about what he is than I'm reassured by what he's not, and I am just absolutely desperate for this country to not be governed by Conservatives. I don't really understand why anyone would not be. So Starmer and Labour can win one election on not being the other lot, it's the next one that they'll have to win on who they are. 

 

So for all my reservations I'd be absolutely made up to wake up on 5 July to a Labour government. Disappointment might be possible, even probable, but that's better than disappointment being inevitable. I don't think they will make anything perfect, but I'm a realist - I don't demand perfection, I just want to feel hope. And from where we are now, things can only get better.

 

So, yeah, D:ream all the way.

[LateStarter50]

24 minutes ago, Tiesto13 said:

what do the tories have to show for it. Local and central government finances that are in a disastrous state, an economy that has pretty much flatlined for 14 years, a bunch of privatised industries that have pillaged/polluted country, a succession of botched infrastructure projects and a general feeling of distaste and distrust in politics. 

Yes, excellent analysis; I’d like to add to the list that this bunch of Tories have disproven the adage that for strong government you need a strong single party majority. The unruly MPs and the bizarre tastes of the membership have added to the stream of chaos that we, as citizens, have had to endure. 
Therefore I’m tempted by a Labour-Greens-LibDem coalition whereby the forces within such a coalition require discipline from the major party in particular to hold it together. And - can’t believe I’m saying this - I’m tempted by a switch over to PR for future elections - but realise it has its risks too.

And I also realise that to enter the coalition in 2010, the LD performed the worst about face on policy possible that my eldest is now paying for… I guess it’s always a choice between the devil and the deep blue sea?

[Physical_graffiti]

1 hour ago, Blisterpack said:

you literally did. Israeli hostages, war in Sudan, increase in price of Freddos, all as possible additions for people to protest about in addition to the actions of Israel in Gaza. 

We can all read what I put, and I assume all understand English, so please don't argue in bad faith and pretend that's what I said. I don't know what you're trying to achieve by saying that when my post is freely available for everyone to read.

 

In response to your friends feeling uncomfortable - I'd hope and feel confident that they would be loved and supported at Glastonbury. I can totally understand why they might feel uncomfortable, but even something as crude as "f**k Israel" is shorthand for "f**k the Israeli government" - specifically their actions killing innocent Palestinians, which is nothing to do with the Israeli people. It would horrify me to think of any Jewish person experiencing discrimination at the best place in the world. It's a tactic of the Israeli government to conflate the two though. I'd say don't fall into their trap - take people at their word when they are criticising a government that that is what they are doing, not criticising an entire ethnic group.

[Ell99]

45 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

I have tried to articulate these sentiments on behalf of my friends on several occasions and I've probably fallen well short, but you have done so quite beautifully here on behalf of yourself and your friends. I really do hope you have a wonderful time. 

That's very kind of you to say, thank you. Hope you have an absolutely brilliant time too! 

[Blisterpack]

6 minutes ago, Physical_graffiti said:

We can all read what I put, and I assume all understand English, so please don't argue in bad faith and pretend that's what I said. I don't know what you're trying to achieve by saying that when my post is freely available for everyone to read.

 

In response to your friends feeling uncomfortable - I'd hope and feel confident that they would be loved and supported at Glastonbury. I can totally understand why they might feel uncomfortable, but even something as crude as "f**k Israel" is shorthand for "f**k the Israeli government" - specifically their actions killing innocent Palestinians, which is nothing to do with the Israeli people. It would horrify me to think of any Jewish person experiencing discrimination at the best place in the world. It's a tactic of the Israeli government to conflate the two though. I'd say don't fall into their trap - take people at their word when they are criticising a government that that is what they are doing, not criticising an entire ethnic group.

My ability to read English is fine. It's a fairly straightforward sentence you wrote, so if it's not how you meant it then it may be worth an edit? 

Netanyahu could be removed in an election tomorrow. It wouldn't make Israel any safer from attack from Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah etc and it would need to continue defending itself.  The 'eff Israel' crowd would not change one iota. Once Israel is accepted as a legitimate nation - and home to nearly half of the Jews on the planet - by its neighbours and those around the world decrying them, then it might be possible to get a peaceful settlement. Or do you disagree? 

 

[Spindles]

20 minutes ago, LateStarter50 said:

Therefore I’m tempted by a Labour-Greens-LibDem coalition whereby the forces within such a coalition require discipline from the major party in particular to hold it together. And - can’t believe I’m saying this - I’m tempted by a switch over to PR for future elections - but realise it has its risks too.

 

This for me is the long term dream.  First the implementation of PR to replace our current electoral system which would lead to more coalition governments in the future.  It is my firm belief that the human race achieves more through co-operation than it does through competition.

[Physical_graffiti]

5 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

My ability to read English is fine. It's a fairly straightforward sentence you wrote, so if it's not how you meant it then it may be worth an edit? 

Netanyahu could be removed in an election tomorrow. It wouldn't make Israel any safer from attack from Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah etc and it would need to continue defending itself.  The 'eff Israel' crowd would not change one iota. Once Israel is accepted as a legitimate nation - and home to nearly half of the Jews on the planet - by its neighbours and those around the world decrying them, then it might be possible to get a peaceful settlement. Or do you disagree? 

 

 

No, I meant it exactly how I wrote it, so I'll leave it. I genuinely don't believe you think I was saying the capture of israeli hostages is comparable to the price of Freddos, hence I believe you are arguing in bad faith. 

 

Yep, agree with your second paragraph! My point was those protesting against the Israeli government at Glastonbury (which is a crowd I'd happily be a part of) do so because they disagree with the Israeli government's butchering of innocents on a huge scale, as opposed to anyone's ethnicity/religion.

[Ell99]

4 minutes ago, Physical_graffiti said:

 

No, I meant it exactly how I wrote it, so I'll leave it. I genuinely don't believe you think I was saying the capture of israeli hostages is comparable to the price of Freddos, hence I believe you are arguing in bad faith. 

 

Yep, agree with your second paragraph! My point was those protesting against the Israeli government at Glastonbury (which is a crowd I'd happily be a part of) do so because they disagree with the Israeli government's butchering of innocents on a huge scale, as opposed to anyone's ethnicity/religion.

 

Agree that the people protesting the Israeli goverment are primarily doing so in good faith because of the governments actions the past several months.

 

But from the perspective of a Jewish person, attending the festival, who also disagrees with the Israeli government's actions - I'd encourage you to read my post on the previous page where I try to articulate why it still can make people feel uncomfortable primarily due to the unprecedented rise in anti-semitism.

[CanWeRest]

2 hours ago, Physical_graffiti said:

People who have a different political opinion to you aren't necessarily "idiots who barely know anything". Maybe consider that they could be very well educated.

 

Very much speaking anecdotally, but the ones I know who do it are against the murder of innocent people (all innocent people). As these attacks from Israel are currently happening on a huge scale against innocent Palestinians, including babies and children, and supported by our government, you can understand the desire to protest.

 

It's not about having a different political view though. After what happened, nobody should be grabbing a Palestine flag and waving it around. It's a matter of respect to what happened to those innocent people in Israel in October. It's sickening, and there's no excuse for it. I'm not saying people should change their political views, I'm saying that, under bo circumstances, should anyone be dealing themselves in a Palestine flag right now. It is downright idiotic 

 

3 hours ago, Skip997 said:

Absolute nonsense 

You’ve been played 

 

That has no purpose other than to make me feel small, but I know what I said is the truth, so I will give you no more of my time. 

 

3 hours ago, Colorblindjames said:

Conveniently forgetting the previous 70 years. 

 

No, absolutely not. Just remembering what happened in October. I am not taking sides, but anyone with half a brain in their nut should know that parading a Palestinian flag around, less than a year after what happened, is the act of a f**kwit.

[Blisterpack]

2 minutes ago, Physical_graffiti said:

 

No, I meant it exactly how I wrote it, so I'll leave it. I genuinely don't believe you think I was saying the capture of israeli hostages is comparable to the price of Freddos, hence I believe you are arguing in bad faith. 

 

Yep, agree with your second paragraph! My point was those protesting against the Israeli government at Glastonbury (which is a crowd I'd happily be a part of) do so because they disagree with the Israeli government's butchering of innocents on a huge scale, as opposed to anyone's ethnicity/religion.

If you didn't mean it the way I read it - you flippantly throwing something irrelevant into the mix and creating a false equivalence - then I accept that. 

I do find it odd that the groundswell of activity in respect of a war (which to be fair I am anticipating; it may not happen) was not so evident at Glastonbury in respect of the Yugoslavia conflict, Rwanda, Sudan (as you mentioned) or even as recent as Ukraine. It seems odd that the real outrage is against the Jewish state (though as I have said previously, a quarter of the population is not Jewish) in a conflict that clearly involves other sides who have acted appallingly with the help of very powerful sponsors.  

[Colorblindjames]

40 minutes ago, CanWeRest said:

 

It's not about having a different political view though. After what happened, nobody should be grabbing a Palestine flag and waving it around. It's a matter of respect to what happened to those innocent people in Israel in October. It's sickening, and there's no excuse for it. I'm not saying people should change their political views, I'm saying that, under bo circumstances, should anyone be dealing themselves in a Palestine flag right now. It is downright idiotic 

 

 

That has no purpose other than to make me feel small, but I know what I said is the truth, so I will give you no more of my time. 

 

 

No, absolutely not. Just remembering what happened in October. I am not taking sides, but anyone with half a brain in their nut should know that parading a Palestinian flag around, less than a year after what happened, is the act of a f**kwit.

I’m assuming you also agree that anyone waving an Israeli flag around would be the act f a f**kwit too. 

[Colorblindjames]

39 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

If you didn't mean it the way I read it - you flippantly throwing something irrelevant into the mix and creating a false equivalence - then I accept that. 

I do find it odd that the groundswell of activity in respect of a war (which to be fair I am anticipating; it may not happen) was not so evident at Glastonbury in respect of the Yugoslavia conflict, Rwanda, Sudan (as you mentioned) or even as recent as Ukraine. It seems odd that the real outrage is against the Jewish state (though as I have said previously, a quarter of the population is not Jewish) in a conflict that clearly involves other sides who have acted appallingly with the help of very powerful sponsors.  

You keep making these false equivalencies. Our government and tax money isn’t going towards carrying out the other conflicts you mention. I’m encouraged however that you are comparing the actions of Israel to these other genocides. Progress. 

[Blisterpack]

Just now, Colorblindjames said:

You keep making these false equivalencies. Our government and tax money isn’t going towards carrying out the other conflicts you mention. I’m encouraged however that you are comparing the actions of Israel to these other genocides. Progress. 

Using the term genocide to describe actions of a democratically elected Government defending itself is obscene enough.  To use it in respect of a Government representing nearly half of the jews in the World (even a Government led by the appalling Netanyahu) is unforgivable.  The trend of using the word against Israel was first started by the holocaust deniers in the 90's of course in case you need a history lesson. But if you don't need that lesson and are using the term anyway, then.... people might draw their own conclusions. 

[Physical_graffiti]

24 minutes ago, Ell99 said:

 

Agree that the people protesting the Israeli goverment are primarily doing so in good faith because of the governments actions the past several months.

 

But from the perspective of a Jewish person, attending the festival, who also disagrees with the Israeli government's actions - I'd encourage you to read my post on the previous page where I try to articulate why it still can make people feel uncomfortable primarily due to the unprecedented rise in anti-semitism.

Totally understand. Would hope they feel welcome at glasto. I'd hope nobody at glasto would venture anywhere near anti semitism or making anyone uncomfortable.

 

23 minutes ago, CanWeRest said:

 

It's not about having a different political view though. After what happened, nobody should be grabbing a Palestine flag and waving it around. It's a matter of respect to what happened to those innocent people in Israel in October. It's sickening, and there's no excuse for it. I'm not saying people should change their political views, I'm saying that, under bo circumstances, should anyone be dealing themselves in a Palestine flag right now. It is downright idiotic 

 

 

I'm afraid I strongly disagree here. To another person, waving a Palestine flag is support of innocent civilians being murdered by the Israeli government. I wouldn't impose your beliefs as to what a flag means onto others, who may have different beliefs as to what that means.

 

 

21 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

If you didn't mean it the way I read it - you flippantly throwing something irrelevant into the mix and creating a false equivalence - then I accept that. 

I do find it odd that the groundswell of activity in respect of a war (which to be fair I am anticipating; it may not happen) was not so evident at Glastonbury in respect of the Yugoslavia conflict, Rwanda, Sudan (as you mentioned) or even as recent as Ukraine. It seems odd that the real outrage is against the Jewish state (though as I have said previously, a quarter of the population is not Jewish) in a conflict that clearly involves other sides who have acted appallingly with the help of very powerful sponsors.  

Wasn't around for the others, but Ukraine was definitely evident. Zelensky even did a message on screen specifically directed at the Glastonbury audience!

You're right, sometimes people protest some bad things and not other bad things. The reason the Israeli government gets focus is a) they are supported by our government (unlike Hamas) and b) the innocent death they have caused is unlike anything we have seen in our lifetimes, so it's simply a numbers issue. They are the biggest killers, so will probably be seen as the biggest issue for a lot of people.

[Physical_graffiti]

2 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

Using the term genocide to describe actions of a democratically elected Government defending itself is obscene enough.  To use it in respect of a Government representing nearly half of the jews in the World (even a Government led by the appalling Netanyahu) is unforgivable.  The trend of using the word against Israel was first started by the holocaust deniers in the 90's of course in case you need a history lesson. But if you don't need that lesson and are using the term anyway, then.... people might draw their own conclusions. 

So theoretically speaking - and regardless whether you believe the current situation is genocide or not - if the Israeli government WERE committing genocide, are you saying we would never be allowed to call it that?

[kaosmark2]

3 minutes ago, Physical_graffiti said:

You're right, sometimes people protest some bad things and not other bad things. The reason the Israeli government gets focus is a) they are supported by our government (unlike Hamas) and b) the innocent death they have caused is unlike anything we have seen in our lifetimes, so it's simply a numbers issue. They are the biggest killers, so will probably be seen as the biggest issue for a lot of people.

 

The Saudis are committing genocide in Yemen on a similar scale, have been doing so for years, and are supplied weapons by the UK. it isn't as simple as just a numbers issue.

[Physical_graffiti]

6 minutes ago, kaosmark2 said:

 

The Saudis are committing genocide in Yemen on a similar scale, have been doing so for years, and are supplied weapons by the UK. it isn't as simple as just a numbers issue.

Disgusting by the Saudi government, totally agree. But just because the Saudi government are evil murderers, doesn't mean the Israeli government aren't evil murderers.

I'd read this for clarification on what I meant by the numbers issue - Daily death rate in Gaza higher than any other major 21st Century conflict - Oxfam | Oxfam International

[Blisterpack]

4 minutes ago, Physical_graffiti said:

So theoretically speaking - and regardless whether you believe the current situation is genocide or not - if the Israeli government WERE committing genocide, are you saying we would never be allowed to call it that?

yes you would.  The problem is that this isn't anything like genocide and yet that's what you call it, knowing the historical context of the word itself. It was literally invented to describe what happened in the holocaust. 

In this instance there have been multiple opportunities for the Arab world generally to accept Israel and to live alongside a Jewish nation in peace.  From day 1 they have not done so (though some have moved more than others) and Israel has had to defend itself with a significant military force. To fight the war it is fighting in Gaza is not a 'choice' but a consequence of years of decisions being taken by both sides, but as Israel showed when they withdrew from Gaza nearly 20 years ago, they really don't want anything to do with it if they can help it. 

[kaosmark2]

3 minutes ago, Physical_graffiti said:

Disgusting by the Saudi government, totally agree. But just because the Saudi government are evil murderers, doesn't mean the Israeli government aren't evil murderers.

I'd read this for clarification on what I meant by the numbers issue - Daily death rate in Gaza higher than any other major 21st Century conflict - Oxfam | Oxfam International

I completely agree, both the Saudi and Israeli governments are horrendous evil murderers, and I would describe both situations as genocide using British weapons. I just wanted to make clear that there is another comparable situation happening where our government is also complicit.

 

I haven't looked at numbers in several months for my own wellbeing, the total numbers in Yemen certainly were comparable last time I checked, and given that's another ongoing, very one-sided "conflict" and again, using British weapons, I have felt they're comparable. Those numbers are brutal though. It's horrific.