Things can only get better

[CaledonianGonzo]

Nice try but no.

[Blisterpack]

1 minute ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

Nice try but no.

Ok. I will pass on to my friends that they have been wrong all along about how they feel about themselves. Maybe they can pass it on to the millions who have got it wrong as well. Good job you chipped in. 

[CaledonianGonzo]

Pleasure.

 

But I'm sure you're aware that deliberately conflating Judaism with Zionism is itself antisemitic. 

[Blisterpack]

6 minutes ago, CaledonianGonzo said:

Pleasure.

 

But I'm sure you're aware that deliberately conflating Judaism with Zionism is itself antisemitic. 

Zionism in the modern world represents the support of Israel as a safe home and nation for the Jewish

Race. I support that 100% as do most Jews on the planet. The alternative doesn’t bear thinking about unless you know an alternative that doesn’t involve Israel ceasing to exist?

[Looother]

The problem is that much of the pro-Palestine/pro-Israel argument is presented like a venn diagram with no intersect - we're over here, you're over there, and there's a chasm in the middle. But surely the intersect is the only useful place to be. It is certainly where everyone seeking a peaceful solution would place themselves.

 

I simply hope that at Glastonbury - and everywhere - those who support both Palestinian and Jewish self-determination use language that makes that clear. And I hope those who would deny that right to one of those people are called out for it.

 

Some of the language used in this thread seems to be of the kind that can only be intended to cause division rather than heal it. This has been an issue with a lot of the leftist approach to the conflict (which is obviously awkward for leftist Jews). The obsession with using the word "genocide"(which looks to me like basic Holocaust inversion) is one example. Of course it is possible for Jews to commit genocide, and perhaps before this conflict is over Israel will - certainly Israel's governing coalition includes people who from their public pronouncements appear genocidal. We should be aware of that possibility and ready to respond to it.

 

But (and I don't intend to trivialise what are horrific casualty figures) when the Hamas-run health ministry put the death toll at 34,183 on 23 April and puts it 35,800 today, a rise over 31 days of 52 a day, it is abundantly clear that one is not taking place. Lots of awful stuff is happening and has happened - don't hold back on that. But either desist from using that very loaded word, or accept that by using it you are demonstrating that you are motivated by something other than peace and justice, something darker and more hateful, and that is what other people will see in you.

[Colorblindjames]

1 hour ago, Blisterpack said:

Zionism in the modern world represents the support of Israel as a safe home and nation for the Jewish

Race. I support that 100% as do most Jews on the planet. The alternative doesn’t bear thinking about unless you know an alternative that doesn’t involve Israel ceasing to exist?

A country designed for a specific religion should not exist. A country that discriminates against other religions, does not deserve to exist. Palestinians also deserve somewhere safe to live. 

[tarw]

5 minutes ago, Colorblindjames said:

A country designed for a specific religion should not exist. A country that discriminates against other religions, does not deserve to exist. Palestinians also deserve somewhere safe to live. 

You think Pakistan should cease to exist?

[Colorblindjames]

2 minutes ago, tarw said:

You think Pakistan should cease to exist?

I don’t know enough about Pakistan. Is it an apartheid state? All states should separate politics from religion. 

[Blisterpack]

29 minutes ago, Colorblindjames said:

A country designed for a specific religion should not exist. A country that discriminates against other religions, does not deserve to exist. Palestinians also deserve somewhere safe to live. 

40 years ago these were arguments being made by the National Front and the Ku Klux Klan. How things change. 

[Blisterpack]

Just now, Blisterpack said:

40 years ago these were arguments being made by the National Front and the Ku Klux Klan. How things change. 

Palestinians were treated like pawns by Egypt and Jordan (and other Arab countries disappointed by Hitler losing the war) in 1948 and have struggled with identity since. Israel hasn’t helped but is not the only villain in that argument.

[Blisterpack]

23 minutes ago, Colorblindjames said:

I don’t know enough about Pakistan. Is it an apartheid state? All states should separate politics from religion. 

Yeah but many don’t. UK for example. What is it about the only Jewish state that upsets people so much? 

[tarw]

3 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

Palestinians were treated like pawns by Egypt and Jordan (and other Arab countries disappointed by Hitler losing the war) in 1948 and have struggled with identity since. Israel hasn’t helped but is not the only villain in that argument.

So are you saying that you want to “Free Palestine”

As in free them from manipulation from outside agencies and give them the right to self determination. 

[Blisterpack]

6 minutes ago, tarw said:

So are you saying that you want to “Free Palestine”

As in free them from manipulation from outside agencies and give them the right to self determination. 

Of course. They came close with the Oslo agreement but ultimately too many associates had an agenda that refused to recognise the legitimacy of the Israeli state and it all fell apart. I do have confidence that a Hamas -free administration in Gaza could work with Abbas and others like the Saudis and Egypt to sort it. 

[Colorblindjames]

17 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

Yeah but many don’t. UK for example. What is it about the only Jewish state that upsets people so much? 

For those not paying attention down the back. I don’t care what church people go to at the weekend. What I care about is genocide. Stop equating Zionism with Jews. That in itself is antisemitism. 

[Blisterpack]

Just now, Colorblindjames said:

For those not paying attention down the back. I don’t care what church people go to at the weekend. What I care about is genocide. Stop equating Zionism with Jews. That in itself is antisemitism. 

Stop deciding on the rules. 

[Colorblindjames]

1 minute ago, Blisterpack said:

Stop deciding on the rules. 

Not my rules mate. 

[Looother]

1 hour ago, Colorblindjames said:

A country designed for a specific religion should not exist. A country that discriminates against other religions, does not deserve to exist. Palestinians also deserve somewhere safe to live. 

 

 

James, I have tried to a few times to compose a response to your various arguments but really there's no point, because they are so extraordinarily imbecilic. I don't know if you're on a windup, you're ignorant, or you're genuinely antisemitic - I suspect it's at least two of them - but none are particularly good looks. Feel free to send me a private message if you want to discuss, nobody's a lost cause.

 

Edited May 24 by Looother

[Colorblindjames]

1 minute ago, Looother said:

 

 

James, I have tried to a few times to compose a response to your argument but really there's no point, because it is so extraordinarily imbecilic. I don't know if you're on a windup, you're ignorant, or you're genuinely antisemitic - I suspect it's at least two of them - but none are particularly good looks. Feel free to send me a private message if you want to discuss, nobody's a lost cause.

 

Your heads gonna explode if you ever take a trip to France.

 

P.s. Stop calling me antisemitic, though this appears to be the default response nowadays. 

[tarw]

4 minutes ago, Colorblindjames said:

Your heads gonna explode if you ever take a trip to France.

 

P.s. Stop calling me antisemitic, though this appears to be the default response nowadays. 

I am very much pro the Palestinian people and find the actions of the Israeli government absolutely disgusting. 
 

I think that some of your comments have been antisemetic. Please think of how you post your views. 

[Colorblindjames]

2 minutes ago, tarw said:

I am very much pro the Palestinian people and find the actions of the Israeli government absolutely disgusting. 
 

I think that some of your comments have been antisemetic. Please think of how you post your views. 

Can you give me an example? 

[Blisterpack]

1 minute ago, tarw said:

I am very much pro the Palestinian people and find the actions of the Israeli government absolutely disgusting. 
 

I think that some of your comments have been antisemetic. Please think of how you post your views. 

Hopefully people might start to understand why so many of our Jewish friends are deciding to opt out of the festival this year. 

[Ell99]

41 minutes ago, Colorblindjames said:

For those not paying attention down the back. I don’t care what church people go to at the weekend. What I care about is genocide. Stop equating Zionism with Jews. That in itself is antisemitism. 

I'm to repost what I wrote yesterday for you to understand how the issue of massively anti-Israel and anti-Zionist rhetoric can conflate with anti-semitism, this is from my perspective as a Jewish festival go-er. I hope you find it informative.

 

 

 

Myself and my girlfriend are both Jewish and will be attending too. We are in a big group of both Jews and non Jews and agree that it is a very sensitive topic.

 

As one poster rightly mentions above, lots of Jews do attend the Pro-Palestinian marches and do so feeling very comfortable within the Jewish-bloc there. As they are rightly marching for and advocating for peace - a foundation of the Jewish religion. However, many Jews that I know, would not feel comfortable partaking. 

 

Myself and mf GF have naturally been talking a lot about what Glastonbury will be like this year. I totally expect there to be a lot of Palestinian flags and mentions of the War by performers. Now - this is the point that is difficult for non-Jews to completely understand or appreciate, and something that I have found it hard to articulate to my non-Jewish friends but I will give it a go:

 

When I see throngs of people with Palestinian flags and chanting "free Palestine" - sentiments that I 100% agree with and would advocate for a two state solution. It does still trigger something within me and gives me a viceral reaction in my gut. This has happened a few times at gigs in the last 6 months when chants from the crowd or performers have come out of the blue and taken my attention away from the music.

 

As people will have no doubt seen levels of anti-semitism have drastically risen since Oct 7th, and I know that the rational part of me is telling me that the vast majority of these people on the marches, don't have anything against Jewish people. However, the sad fact is, that some do have within them, even if it is a slight unconscious bias, traits of anti-semitism. I believe that this is because the complexity of the situation - being anti the Israeli government, questioning the formation of the state of Israel, the fact that these war-mongering people are all Jewish - this cocktail gets mixed up and can lead anti-Israel sentiments to become anti-Jewish.

 

The crux of it is, that for me, when I ask myself if I would feel comfortable pronouncing to these people that I am Jewish, I would have some trepidation. It is a feeling of isolation which is horrible to have. As a liberal person that has been brought up in London, feeling a sense of alienation is really unpleasant and not something that I ever thought I would have to contend with as a Jew. 

 

I still can't wait for Glastonbury, will have a brilliant time - but I know these slight feelings of unease will crop up, and that applies for several Jews that I know attending the festival. And may I reiterate - that is despite the fact that we all maintain the sentiments that we want this war over, that the innocent killing of Palestinian's is abysmal, but also not forgetting that the hostages held in Gaza must be released, and that the atrocities of Oct 7th cannot be forgotten, especially for a people who have historically suffered so greatly.  

[Superscally]

Can this argument politely f**k off to the General or Politics area please? Mods can you end this?

[Crazyfool01]

On 5/23/2024 at 11:39 AM, kaosmark2 said:

Mod note

 

We're leaving this thread up for now, as Glastonbury is political, D:Ream are playing, and this song was part of the '97 election. Organic discussion is of course welcome.

 

That said, please have a reminder that we have a UK politics and International Politics thread over in the discussion section, and we'd urge users to focus most ongoing and in-depth political conversations over there.

 

If this thread starts to descend into name calling and insults, those comments will be edited or deleted, and the thread locked.

 

 

MOD note

 

Thread has been locked because of personal insults as per the above message , not due to political discussion 

Edited May 24 by Crazyfool01