Cricket

[TheGayTent]

Still don't understand yours (and others) point about Trott's batting on Sunday evening.

1) He proved the next day he's more than capable of batting at an increased strike rate (and has done so before in similar circumstances)

2) They will have discussed tactics prior to the session so very unlikely he wasn't following team orders (in which case, blame the team not the batsman)

3) He was batting with the captain...if Cook thought Trott wasn't following orders, he should (and I believe, would) have had a word. Clearly he didn't, so revert to point 2).

[TheGayTent]

Re Bell, you've just described very well a test batsmen who is struggling for form. It's still relatively easy for a batsmen to put a bad ball away when out of form. But, it's hard not to edge a very good ball, and just as hard to score 1s and 2s from a good ball - his touch and confidence aren't quite there. His timing isn't quite there, he's hitting the fielder and not the gap.

He's class, it'll come back - it's a case of when...

Edited May 28, 2013 by TheGayTent

[TheGayTent]

Re Broad.

You nailed it in your post. His runs were bonus runs. If England lose the Ashes it will because the specialist batsmen don't score heavily enough and/or the bowling unit (including Broad) don't take 20 wickets with the ball often enough, not because Broad averages 5 with the bat for the series and not 25.

[TheGayTent]

Broad and other bowlers who can bat a bit - take a look at when they score runs...

It's usually when they come in with the score 300-6. I.e. usually the pitch isn't doing much and the ball is old (often the 2nd new ball) and therefore there's little movement. There's little pressure on them.

Contrastly, they rarely get 30s and 40s when they come in at 150-6. If the specialist batsmen have struggled, the pitch and/or the (newer) ball are offering the bowlers something, and the lower order batsmen are under pressure, it's no surprise they don't score as many...

I agree Broad has been out of form with the bat, no doubt of that - but too much has been made of it for me.

Look at England's batting scores in 2011. Look at them since - on average they've been a lot lower. Meaning Broad has been coming in to more difficult conditions than previously. Add that to not being in form and it's no surprise his average has gone down and runs have been harder to come by.

[pink_triangle]

I suspect England will always be a bit on the cautious side with things like declarations, as the British have a cautious mentality and we tend to pick quite conservative captains.

I remember seeing stats of the highest ever run chases and I think only 30 teams have ever chased 230+ in test history. A lead of 300 was always going to be enough but with the series in the position it was, they were always going to go for a huge lead.

[kaosmark2]

Still don't understand yours (and others) point about Trott's batting on Sunday evening.

1) He proved the next day he's more than capable of batting at an increased strike rate (and has done so before in similar circumstances)

2) They will have discussed tactics prior to the session so very unlikely he wasn't following team orders (in which case, blame the team not the batsman)

3) He was batting with the captain...if Cook thought Trott wasn't following orders, he should (and I believe, would) have had a word. Clearly he didn't, so revert to point 2).

If you compare how Cook played to how Trott played it's a sharp difference making me think it wasn't tactics. Cook almost ran Trott out, which made me think Cook was far more keen to look for singles and wanted Trott to do so as well. It's not that he can't increase his strike rate, it's that there seem to be a number of times where he doesn't and he should. If it's not his failure, then its a tactics failure.

Re Bell, you've just described very well a test batsmen who is struggling for form. It's still relatively easy for a batsmen to put a bad ball away when out of form. But, it's hard not to edge a very good ball, and just as hard to score 1s and 2s from a good ball - his touch and confidence aren't quite there. His timing isn't quite there, he's hitting the fielder and not the gap.

He's class, it'll come back - it's a case of when...

Bell's defensive technique is far better at present than what most of the rest of the England squad in recent years has been in recent years. Strauss was struggling more with defensive technique than finding 1s and 2s, Cook in his bad patch before the last Ashes, KP whenever it's not gone his way. Bell's been a long time out of form, have to go back to the home series against India for when he was playing well, although he's certainly better now than he was in the UAE - mainly in terms of defensive technique.

And yeah, it's that his form is a concern rather than that I'm advocating dropping him.

Re Broad.

You nailed it in your post. His runs were bonus runs. If England lose the Ashes it will because the specialist batsmen don't score heavily enough and/or the bowling unit (including Broad) don't take 20 wickets with the ball often enough, not because Broad averages 5 with the bat for the series and not 25.

Broad and other bowlers who can bat a bit - take a look at when they score runs...

It's usually when they come in with the score 300-6. I.e. usually the pitch isn't doing much and the ball is old (often the 2nd new ball) and therefore there's little movement. There's little pressure on them.

Contrastly, they rarely get 30s and 40s when they come in at 150-6. If the specialist batsmen have struggled, the pitch and/or the (newer) ball are offering the bowlers something, and the lower order batsmen are under pressure, it's no surprise they don't score as many...

I agree Broad has been out of form with the bat, no doubt of that - but too much has been made of it for me.

Look at England's batting scores in 2011. Look at them since - on average they've been a lot lower. Meaning Broad has been coming in to more difficult conditions than previously. Add that to not being in form and it's no surprise his average has gone down and runs have been harder to come by.

Vs. Pakistan in the UAE? Broad and Swann were doing better with the bat than most of the top and middle order. Strauss, Bell, KP and Morgan all struggled in that series and then we were rescued by the lower order from scores of 150-6 and similar. The lower order batsmen went into that series in form and then were able to rescue us as a result, most of them being out of form/not good enough with the bat means the chance they'll save an innings is sharply reduced.

I suspect England will always be a bit on the cautious side with things like declarations, as the British have a cautious mentality and we tend to pick quite conservative captains.

I remember seeing stats of the highest ever run chases and I think only 30 teams have ever chased 230+ in test history. A lead of 300 was always going to be enough but with the series in the position it was, they were always going to go for a huge lead.

Vaughan?

[TheGayTent]

Re Bell. Yes I agree, he's out of form, he's not had a technique flaw picked up on and having it exploited (as Cook did in 2008/09 and subsequently changed his starting position and foot placement).

[TheGayTent]

Don't agree re Broad in UAE.

He got runs once in 6 innings. Coming in when Cook had scored 90 odd and Trott 70 odd. He played a T20 type innings and we still lost the game.

We lost that series 3-0 in a 3 test series.

Like I say, if you're relying on Broad to save a game, it's because he (and his pals) have failed with the ball and/or the specialist batsmen have failed with the bat. Not because Broad fails with the bat.

By and large, his runs are bonus runs.

Edited May 28, 2013 by TheGayTent

[kaosmark2]

Huh, I'd remembered Broad getting a score and the lower order rescuing innings to give a fighting chance a couple of times. Still, Broad's form running up to that included some innings-changing scores.

(hadn't seen 2nd post until now)

ODIs haven't gone well. We won today but I think that was partially that the series was finished. The big difference between today's game and the previous two was which team had wickets in hand for the final overs. Today England took wickets steadily, and didn't throw many away easily (except for Bell with both his and Root), enabling the middle order to properly bash it in the finale. Not playing Dernbach definitely helped. And while I don't ever want Bopara in Test cricket, bits and pieces not-quite all-rounders like him and Patel provide balance to an ODI side. I'd probably swap Broad out for Anderson for the Champions Trophy, too prone to the odd bad ball that gets smacked away for ODIs IMO.

That said, if any of our best cricketers get injured in the Champions Trophy for the Ashes I'll be furious. I'd far rather play average cricketers in limited overs formats that sacrifice a pair of Ashes series.

[TheGayTent]

The key to today's game was playing two spinners on a wicket that did nothing for the quicks.

Tredwell has to play in this scenario in the Champions Trophy.

Similar to yourself, wouldn't ever consider Bopara for Tests, but don't mind the option in 50 over format if we have injuries and the wicket suits.

[kaosmark2]

The key to today's game was playing two spinners on a wicket that did nothing for the quicks.

Tredwell has to play in this scenario in the Champions Trophy.

Similar to yourself, wouldn't ever consider Bopara for Tests, but don't mind the option in 50 over format if we have injuries and the wicket suits.

We didn't really play two spinners though, Tredwell's the only full-time spinner that played today, Root's part-time and got overs in the previous games.

I don't think England selectors consider the wicket conditions enough really. Obviously injuries/fitness have played their part, but the classic example is not playing Monty in the 1st Tests of subcontinental series. They seem to have their formulae and try and stick to that when possible. Mind you, they've probably been put off after their experiment of leaving Swann out in the Headingley Test last summer. Fractionally better in ODIs but still not vastly.

[lharris92]

top quality knock from Buttler as well today, 47 in 17 balls, changed the match completely. plus morgan too as well at the end, and bell had a good innings too. bowlers did a good job as well.

[kaosmark2]

top quality knock from Buttler as well today, 47 in 17 balls, changed the match completely. plus morgan too as well at the end, and bell had a good innings too. bowlers did a good job as well.

Good from Bell, but he did what he's been doing in Tests, last 1-2 hours then get out stupidly (and getting Root run out just before). Same problem with working singles as well. Still, hopefully he'll focus on the 82 and that'll help him keep getting such scores rather than the idiotic dismissals.

Really aggressive power players tend to do so much better when there's wickets in hand to bash the ball around. Look at the Brendan McCullum, when he's come in early he's got out, when it's been later, he's completely dominated the attack. They've always been important, but under the latest regulations it seems like the most important thing is to steadily (4+/over) accumulate and keep wickets in hand for a massive final push. Cracking from Butler and Morgan though as you say.

Big thing for me with the bowlers was they took wickets. Some of them didn't have the best economy (Broad, Root), but it didn't matter anywhere near as much because they took wickets which put pressure on the NZ batting lineup. And not having Dernbach helped a lot.

[lharris92]

man of the 3 man series has to be Guptill, dominated with the bat, but when they got him out relatively early in the match yesterday it helped set up that innings for us.

cant wait for the ashes now even though haven't got tickets for any games

[kaosmark2]

man of the 3 man series has to be Guptill, dominated with the bat, but when they got him out relatively early in the match yesterday it helped set up that innings for us.

cant wait for the ashes now even though haven't got tickets for any games

He looks vulnerable to spin, but yeah, absolutely.

And same, really wish I had Might try going on the 5th day of one if it's doable.

[TheGayTent]

I have tickets

Important match going on in the county championship at the moment for Compton. He's currently 23 no at lunch in their game against Durham.

[kaosmark2]

Important match going on in the county championship at the moment for Compton. He's currently 23 no at lunch in their game against Durham.

And reached 75 not out. Hard to say that's not scoring runs.

[lharris92]

century for compton

[kaosmark2]

Holding a healthy strike rate nearing 50 as well. Not that vital in Test/First Class cricket but considering it's been a criticism of him lately it's another positive.

[lharris92]

at close of play

Compton not out 139 runs 349 mins 276 balls 15 fours 1 six

336-5, he has carried them this innings really which is good in a sense (next highest score 36)

Edited June 6, 2013 by lharris92

[kaosmark2]

Onions has done well in that too. 2-43 off 18. Taking wickets with good control.

But yeah, cracking from Compton. Got told to make runs for Somerset to secure his Ashes spot and he's done that.

[Gre]

But yeah, cracking from Compton. Got told to make runs for Somerset to secure his Ashes spot and he's done that.

Good to see, but now who's getting dropped for Pieterson once he's fit? I think Root is safe, so drop Compton & move Root up to 2?

Champions Trophy... blah, couldn't care less. Completely unnecessary tournament.

[kaosmark2]

Good to see, but now who's getting dropped for Pieterson once he's fit? I think Root is safe, so drop Compton & move Root up to 2?

Champions Trophy... blah, couldn't care less. Completely unnecessary tournament.

Bairstow. Bit harsh considering he's in good nick but everyone knows Bairstow will be a mainstay in the middle order for England eventually, even if he's in and out of the side for a while beforehand. Once Compton loses his place I can't see him ever regaining it.

[TheGayTent]

Good to see, but now who's getting dropped for Pieterson once he's fit? I think Root is safe, so drop Compton & move Root up to 2?

.

That would be utter lunacy IMO

[kaosmark2]

That would be utter lunacy IMO

Seems a bit of an exaggeration. Root is an opener after all...