Beer tent clearance on Sunday night

[eFestivals]

I have acted as an advocate many times for individuals and groups of employees and attempts to destroy the credibility of witnesses and organisations distancing themselves from the proceedings is standard.

I expect that from Government bodies and large corporate organisations but to see it in action from Festival organisers and a Festival website is a bit of an eye-opener.

Oh c'mon - *you* the one doing what you are accusing EIID and me of doing. If you're used to acting as an advocate in situations then you should know to not over-state your case, to use emotion instead of facts, etc, etc. You destroyed your own credibility in my eyes by doing this - I've simply repeated back your words and pointed out what I consider to be these things.

I'll point out that I'm posting here off my own back, nothing to do with EIID. The only contact I've had with them since the fest was a phone call on Monday night when they asked me if I'd seen or heard of this incident (which I hadn't until then).

There are serious discrepancies between the Security incident report and what we saw happen.

There are discrepancies, yes. But please be aware that it's just as possible that some of these discrepancies are caused just as much by what you didn't see happen as by any dishonesty over this by security.

You've stated that security didn't try to clear the tent before this incident, but it's simply not possible for you to be 100% certain that that was the case - you cannot know what you didn't see. Me saying that is nothing other than saying that - it's not an accusation of you lying, it's just simply a fact, and one that needs to be considered along with anything else. There's at least one post in this thread which states that security *did* try to clear the bar prior to this incident - one version must be wrong, but which? You have to accept you might be wrong with your version, even if you believe what you say was the case.

I appreciate the fact that it takes time to investigate something like this but the fact that this issue has had the most views of any topic on the front page of this forum, in about 24 hours, should be taken as a sign of peoples concern about the matters raised.

no, all that says is that people love to read a row.

If this topic has been viewed so much yet there's not so many people posting in it, then it can similarly be considered that people have nothing to say on this issue - that they don't think that security was over-the-top enough for them to comment on.

Dogs and handcuffs in the hands of private security firms at Festivals is an issue that will not go away and is relevant to any Festival goer, I never thought I would see it at Endorse it, if it can happen there it can happen anywhere.

there's many more important issues related to security at festivals than just these two things. I'm not condoning these things - personally I believe that security at ALL festivals (outside of keeping out fence jumpers) is far too strong compared to what's actually needed, but it's not my own view that holds sway. It's the licencing authorities views that count, and each authority has their own independent idea of what's needed (there's no national guidelines). I'm realistic enough to know that the alternative to private security is the police, but the result on festival go-ers would be a far greater cost for their ticket and often a less-free atmosphere - the police are no less capable of being little hitlers than private security, and no more truthful in the event of an incident.

And for private security to be prepared to take on the job they've got to feel capable of taking on that job and be safe while doing so. Would you take on that job knowing the sorts of arseholes that attend festivals (all festivals)*? I certainly wouldn't, but if I did, from my personal point of view I'd want a very big stick. So while I'm horrified as a punter that security might have these things because I know they'd never have need of them when dealing with me, I can think of plenty of situations where those things make security safer in doing their job on a festival site - and their job on a festival site is to police it; they need the necessary tools to be able to do that safely. I'd be surprised if the police/licencing authorities didn't feel security had need of those tools in certain circumstances - after all, short of fifteen people sitting on a trouble-maker (and so those people are not available to deal with another issue), how exactly do security restrain someone until the police arrive on site if they need to do that and the police aren't present at that moment?? Private security are on festival sites in place of the police and with the police wanting private security doing that job and not them; they are, if you like, the police for the duration of a festival. The badging of security staff has improved things in this area, but it's still taking a while to shake out those not suitable for this role.

(*I'm not saying everyone is an arsehole, just that there's always a proportion of arseholes)

Since when have democratic polls been Spam ?

when they're posted in every forum when they are not relevant to those forums. These forums have always been run in this manner, and while I might be wrong it's my belief that this manner is a part of their popularity; each forum stays relevant to it's purpose, and people appreciate that.

[elfskin]

I was there, and despite your "ninja warrior" posturing on a website, I don't remember you getting stuck into the security guards. Was that you at the back, giving them a "paddington bear" hard stare?

I really think that this is getting silly.

[William of Walworth]

Haven't time to respond properly to barbie now, but her logic fails in several directions. Particularly concerning knives -- I have 'naively' lived on a council estate in an inner city area, just up the road from Peckham, for the last 17 years, and knife crime among the youth is supposedly rife these days. I have never even SEEN a knife though, nor a gun, and her notion that these are just as much a risk at a small rural festival as they supposedly are on the mean streets of SE London (according to the Daily Mail and Evening Standard sensationalising headlines anyway), is patently bonkers.

Plus, how will a dog (specifically) be any more of a counter to a gun or a knife at a festival, than just some tough Security teams without dogs?

Were there any knives being widely used at Endorse It in 2007, where Security didn't have dogs? Of course not. Get off the crime hysteria of the Mail chat forums and hit the real world.

Edited August 13, 2008 by William of Walworth

[eFestivals]

Plus, how will a dog (specifically) be any more of a counter to a gun or a knife at a festival, than just some tough Security teams without dogs?

if you don't know, then really, what business do you have commenting in this thread???

Were there any knives being widely used at Endorse It in 2007, where Security didn't have dogs? Of course not. Get off the crime hysteria of the Mail chat forums and hit the real world.

would knives have been used this year if they didn't have dogs? You don't know and nor do I.

I'm sure that you expect to be safe when going about your job. Will you grant that same right to other people?

I'm not saying that security should have dogs, just that I can see how they're likely to feel a damned sight safer if they do.

[elfskins back]

Another point that needs looking into is this.

Section 1 of the 1975 Guard Dogs Act states;

(3) A person shall not use or permit the use of a guard dog at any premises unless a notice containing a warning that a guard dog is present is clearly exhibited at each entrance to the premises.

I didn't see any warning signs at the entrance to the Festival or in any of the Licensed premises inside the site.

I've had my say and look forward to some sort of statement in due course.

Edited August 13, 2008 by elfskins back

[cran]

Do you think that's wise Mr Viagra sir? These late night festival ne'er do wells don't like it up 'em!

[eFestivals]

Another point that needs looking into is this.

Section 1 of the 1975 Guard Dogs Act states;

(3) A person shall not use or permit the use of a guard dog at any premises unless a notice containing a warning that a guard dog is present is clearly exhibited at each entrance to the premises.

I didn't see any warning signs at the entrance to the Festival or in any of the Licensed premises inside the site.

what is the definition of a guard dog within that context? I'd have thought it was a dog roaming free and not on a leash - the dogs at EIID were always on leads as far as anyone has said. (they were when I saw them).

[Mad-Iccy]

Do you think that's wise Mr Viagra sir? These late night festival ne'er do wells don't like it up 'em!

[elfskins back]

what is the definition of a guard dog within that context? I'd have thought it was a dog roaming free and not on a leash - the dogs at EIID were always on leads as far as anyone has said. (they were when I saw them).

[F8 republic]

Hi all,

First may I say well done to all the organisers for another great festy,the rain did not hamper anyone’s mood with the one exception of ESP security who did their utmost best to ruin the friendly family vibe from start to finish they should be renamed RMG (Rural Militia Group).

I personally witnessed very bad people management and nothing short of bullying tactics (including at least one incident where extremely violent tactics were needlessly used). This occurred just by the main stage mid Sunday evening where a young lad of no more than 18 years of age was violently assaulted by six members of ESP and dragged backwards over a fence and then promptly handcuffed and ejected from site. All this for what? Enjoying the Sunday vibe?

Combine this with a generally bad attitude from every encounter that I had with them when I only was trying to exchange pleasantries, The otherwise Nice vibe of your festival has been very much dented by allowing your choice of security to run rampant with their Rural Militia Tactics.

Unless something changes for the better as far as security is concerned, I myself can honestly say that I and many of our friends and communities will not be attending the festi in the future and when you realise that it is these communities that underpin the very nature of many events of this kind it is a very sad state of affairs after all it is the 21st century and we are all adults..........Please note this is not a rant at the festival in general just at the poor choice of the people employed to protect us and keep us safe.

[kerplunk]

Are dogs used at Summer Sundae? No. So it's not an issue for the Summer Sundae forum.

Funnily enough Summer Sundae did have security with dogs one year (2006) - the campsite having been hit by tent thieves who'd come over the perimeter fence the previous year. Haven't seen them since there, but chalk up another 'family friendly' festival that has (in the past at least) felt the need to have dogs around.

The poll-spam was still a daft idea though (and a durge content-wise).

[elfskins back]

I am now hearing from friends that some of the Security did have and where threatening people with Pepper Spray.

Much more worrying is the friend that saw one of Security with Tazar Pistol.

Are they legal in the UK ?

[Rufus Gwertigan]

what is the definition of a guard dog within that context? I'd have thought it was a dog roaming free and not on a leash - the dogs at EIID were always on leads as far as anyone has said. (they were when I saw them).

Edited August 13, 2008 by Planet Dave

[Peachy]

Unfortunately, last minute I was unable to attend EIID this year but I am alarmed by some of the issues raised in this thread. Whilst there might be a certain amount of trollism going on here, it still makes me uneasy to hear of dogs, and security guards with handcuffs at any festival but especially at EIID's with its reputation as a family friendly one. I do not wish to get into the semantics of what's what in the dog world but if I want an encounter with a mad, scary dog I would go and see my ex-husband's girlfriend, not go to a festival and as for men with handcuffs, well

The main thing is that EIID does not send out mixed messages as to what it's about, either its a dangerous festival to attend, in which case the heavy handed security is required or it's a laid back family festival, in which case a far more low key security should be in place. I am sure that Flounder and co will do an excellent damage limitation excercise by dealing with any abuse of power by the security they employed, assuring punters it won't happen again and next year ensure that EIID will be run in the spirit that it was set up in.

NB to barbiesnightmare: If you're interested I can pm you details of the new San Quentin theme park that has opened down the road from me.The security is great , no reported stabbings and the "Stars in their Eyes" Man in Black quarterfinalist is supposed to be playing next week. No need to worry about what kind of dogs they have, the're all killers and will do so if they dont like what you're wearing or how you smell. On the downside the food is supposed to be a bit shite and always comes on a tray with safety knives Also, security don't guarantee your safety after lights out

[Interface]

I am now hearing from friends that some of the Security did have and where threatening people with Pepper Spray.

Much more worrying is the friend that saw one of Security with Tazar Pistol.

Are they legal in the UK ?

[elfskins back]

I think you are right.

This has gone too far for sorting out any other way.

I also think is is up to the organisers to approach the Police.

Pepper Sprays and Tazer Pistols are classed as Firearms in the UK and it is illegal to own them.

The Tazer was seen on a member of Security who was with the two dog handlers during a tent search on Sunday morning.

This has gone too far for an internal investigation.

[Interface]

you want to feel safe at a festival with great security. Don't you think that the security are also allowed to feel safe while they go about their job?

Whatever other valid gripes you might have, this isn't to me a valid gripe of any sort. You might as well go about saying that all builders want to kick your head in just cos they're wearing steel toe-capped boots.

[5co77ie]

OK perhaps you may provide some info? - are PRIVATE security firms allowed to use handcuffs? and Pepper spray?

and . . it is very rare one sees a police officer walking around in a stab vest - on a day to day basis- I think subtle is the word here. I know many a security firm and they belive that they are a service and make all attempts to reduce tensions by 'the subtle approach' a smile here and there - not by abusive and obnoxious actions.

I appreciate your point 'go about their job' but - - - what you are impying is that Endorset employed this firm to be rude and obnoxious to festival goers- flounder is this the case.!! Not being funny but at the G8 the security on one of the sites were most certainly not attired like ESP and they probably really had a case for extra padding.

One might presume that ESP were a little nervous and inexperinced and this was why they felt the need to act insuch a way. For the past two years security seemed to think Endoret very safe-

Are you saying Endorset is not safe any more?

I am sure the punters would like to know especially the ones with children.

Sorry clarity is necessary here- and I am just providing my observations!

[5co77ie]

So in the programme it says bar closes at 3am - what time did this take place?

[greeneyes1980]

So in the programme it says bar closes at 3am - what time did this take place?

[5co77ie]

a pub shuts at 11pm dont mean your gonna send dogs in at 11.30 if peeps are still in there though does it.

i aint taking sides but ya know what i mean

Edited August 13, 2008 by 5co77ie

[greeneyes1980]

what about if people are still there - with your analogy at 2am. Admittedly I think the dogs were a bad idea - but the vibe in there was mangled/edgy everytime i went in for a pint - it was the only bar still selling beer, by comparison the Wig On Casino had music and dancin and a much more friendly vibe.

[KAZRIC]

I have to report having witnessed this security firm acting in entirely professional, non confrontational manner at Endorse It.

A number of festival punters who had health, excess drink and other substance episodes have the calm and non judgemental approach of this security firm to thank for getting the on site paramedics to attend to them. In fact they were very careful to approach anyone who was "fading out" to find out if they were ok.

I did see the dogs on Saturday morning, I was surprised to see them, but they were calm, secure on leads and muzzled. Their handlers were taking them through an area where there were children, noise and a variety of assorted festy people in various states and the dogs remained entirely peaceful and did not bark or react to anyone. My daughter is scared of dogs, so I pointed them out to her so she wasn't surprised when they came past and she wasn't bothered by them.

If you check your program, Endorse It's entertainment was due to close down at 3am....perhaps if everyone had accepted the need to call it a day at a reasonable time and let the staff get some rest this incident wouldn't even have happened.

It's all very well being "Old School", but festivals with inadequate security are more likely to experience trouble they can't control. I'd happily go to another festival with this security firm, I'm sure if there are lessons to be learned from this incident they'll get it covered.

I was a great festival, thanks to all.

[Superfly1967]

I have to report having witnessed this security firm acting in entirely professional, non confrontational manner at Endorse It.

A number of festival punters who had health, excess drink and other substance episodes have the calm and non judgemental approach of this security firm to thank for getting the on site paramedics to attend to them. In fact they were very careful to approach anyone who was "fading out" to find out if they were ok.

I did see the dogs on Saturday morning, I was surprised to see them, but they were calm, secure on leads and muzzled. Their handlers were taking them through an area where there were children, noise and a variety of assorted festy people in various states and the dogs remained entirely peaceful and did not bark or react to anyone. My daughter is scared of dogs, so I pointed them out to her so she wasn't surprised when they came past and she wasn't bothered by them.

If you check your program, Endorse It's entertainment was due to close down at 3am....perhaps if everyone had accepted the need to call it a day at a reasonable time and let the staff get some rest this incident wouldn't even have happened.

It's all very well being "Old School", but festivals with inadequate security are more likely to experience trouble they can't control. I'd happily go to another festival with this security firm, I'm sure if there are lessons to be learned from this incident they'll get it covered.

I was a great festival, thanks to all.

[Ffi]

I am not usually one to go on these forums, but feel as one of the organisers the need to put our feedback onto this issue re security.

We have always run a family friendly event, we continue to uphold the same ethos of the past and I am saddened that whilst reading the feedback this year (what is normally a very positive reflection of the event we put on) is a very different experience.

We have used ESP security both last year and this year.

The organiser of the security firm is an extremely professionnal man whom I have observed de-escalating many situations in a positive and understanding manner. He understands our ethos at Endorse it, the need for safety, security whilst delivering it in a friendly non-confrontational way.

The organisers cannot be responsible or accountable either for the behaviour of the individual security officers or the complainants involved.

The organisers did not give the authorisation for security with dogs to be on the main arena.

As organisers we have to ensure the safety of ALL our punters.

We have to ensure the licensed area is cleared as quickly as possible so that we can retain our license for next year.

We have to ensure that our reputation upholds its good name as we have worked bloody hard to get where we are today.

We will be looking into the incident in the bar very closely (as Flounder has already said)

We continue to encourage feedback for our event so that we can make the necessary improvements for next year.

It is extremely important to us as organisers that these isolated incidents do not dictate the overall impression of the event as a whole.

To somebody who logs on and reads these forums the impression given is a violent festival with out of control punters and heavy handed security. People who wish for the event to be cancelled may take pleasure in reading these posts, side with authority and and get the impression that the punters were "so out of control" that the dogs needed to be bought in.

Realistically we all know that the general vibe of the event was not like that.

We had a fantastic crowd this year, we only required Police on site for two isolated incidents (not fighting)

Kids felt safe, parents felt safe and we as organisers felt safe.

I am sure that even those who did have a negative experience with security can find something positive to say about our event, and I would please encourage you to do so.

If you do have individual concerns to raise please email the festival directly,

and for all you forum peeps, if you can put a bit of a positive slant on our event as well, it would be massively and greatly appreciated.

A massive thankyou to all of you punters who made it an excellent festival for us, apologies for the rain, I think you all coped extremely well

And heres hoping that you loverlies willl be back at Endorse it 09

cheers

ffi