Why is?

[pedmills]

when you attach this to cultural things it's all well and good as it's just how we are raised and how we live our lives but to assume you can attach this to something like camping just strikes me as bizarre as camping is a pretty love it or hate it thing to do for most people regardless of race and colour.

[pedmills]

and as i said before i myself am not above doing this, when a black friend of mine does or doesn't do something and i wonder if that's because they're black and it's a so called black thing, but then of course i realise i'm being daft and forget about it, but when you are on here and you write things down for all to see they have a more permanent sense about them.

you can't really think aloud on places like this and not expect peoiple to pick you up on it

[.jay.]

I don't think this discussion is going anywhere because it is based on a few vague generalised comments from people. But hypothetically say that someone did a survey and found that more white people like camping than black people. Since I highly doubt there is a gene for 'liking camping' there must be a reason for this. If there were more white people in scouts/guides (don't know if this is true) then maybe this would be a reason, as they would get experience of camping and come to enjoy it (of course this would raise the question of why there are less black people in scouts!).

Going back to the very first point of this thread, it is entirely possible that it is due to where people live. Festivals are generally held in rural areas, not inner cities. In cities there are higher proportions of ethnic minorities. Thus more white people might go to festivals because 1. they are closer, 2. they live in rural areas so have more experience camping.

[dieweener]

Swim Club?

That's because black people can't swim! Well, according to my dad who is black and sinks to the bottom everytime his in a body of water.

Anyway, I live in birmingham where there is a very very strong ethnic group, Sparkhill is practicly an all asian town or suburb. I was the only black guy in my beavers, cubs and scouts group. That's what I was basing my theory on. I know I only got in to camping because of scout trips.

Plus the whole scout thing is Christian based so many people wouldn't agree sending there sikh, muslim, jewish, jedi child to a group based on christian faith. And if there is not something similar, which i'm sure there probably is, then they grow up thinking that camping is for white people and tend to stand back.

Dunno why, maybe i'm weird cus I don't really think about race at all, I could go the whole glastonbury weekend without noticing a single black person but it wouldn't play on my mind at all.

[Nickyboy]

I think there is something to the cultural thing, and I think festival going is still predominantly a white middle class thing presently. That's not to say it won't change.

When I started going to football as a nipper in the seventies (and I'm a Huddersfield Town supporter - Huddersfield has all my life had a large West Indian and Asian community), there were hardly any 'non white' people in the crowd. Culturally, supporting football simply wasn't part of their cultural background. However, on the occasions when I visit now, there's a much larger proportion of West Indian and Asian Supporters - I guess the majority are still white, but the mix is much more 'even'.

Over time I imagine this will happen to Glastonbury and other festivals as well. I'm sure the excitement we exude about festivals will eventually rub off and encourage more people to attend who may not have attended in the past.

[Brizzle]

We had a black british girl come with us in 2007....she said she barely saw another black "punter" all weekend (i.e not someone working or performing there)

Edited June 3, 2009 by Brizzle

[pedmills]

Plus the whole scout thing is Christian based so many people wouldn't agree sending there sikh, muslim, jewish, jedi child to a group based on christian faith. And if there is not something similar, which i'm sure there probably is, then they grow up thinking that camping is for white people and tend to stand back.

[dieweener]

It's a shame there aren't more jedis in the scouts

[Laura_Babs]

I'm black and can't really say I noticed.

I don't think i'd really care either. I think another problem is that a lot of black people do not like to camp. No idea why, there is not a chance in hell of anyone of my relatives going at all.

I guess for every wigger there is, there's someone like me who goes in the opposite direction.

And as for Jay-Z, I let that cloud my judgement last year and chose not to go, which I deeply regretted, hence why i'm so excited for this years.

[scorp]

I was just listening to Gil Scott Heron, Whitey on the Moon. It just reminded me that two people I've taken to Glasto on seperate years, have commented on how white the festival is. I hadn't really noticed to be honest until it was pointed out to me but I'm a little shocked at how true it actually is.

I'm not talking about the acts on stage which are truely international and extremely diverse but rather the crowd. And how do you think this compares to other festivals? I'd say Reading is too.

[pedmills]

Right, firstly I hope that I am not generalising too much. Talking race/culture always worries me incase I offend someone - a shame as I am really interested in learning about other cultures.

Could it be that a lot of black immigrants of my parents generation had come from rather warm and sunny countries and the last thing they fancied doing when they moved to England was go camping in the cold of England. Could this then have passed down to their children, my generation (I'm 25 by the way) and therefore meant that there are less black people who opt for camping holidays because it is just something that has never really appealed or been part of their life? I don't think that is the only reason but maybe that goes partly towards explaining why.

In our group last year we had one of my friends who is English but of Caribbean descent and another who is English but of mixed West African and British descent. Both are returning this year. We will also have another black girl in our group who was born and bred in Africa, although moved here as a teenager.

[eFestivals]

Music however Neil, like football, is one of those things that usually transcends cultural differences and while Glasto is of course not all about music, I am still pretty sure that is what sells most of the tickets.

Do you think that music (as a generalisation) transcends cultures? I don't, at least not quickly (and quick cultural change is always resisted by all cultures).

Just think, for example (and again, a generalisation), how many years it took for white people of the mainstream to start to accept heavy metal as music and not just noise ..... nowadays it's pretty run of the mill, no great shakes for someone to like it, but it wasn't always that way (I reckon it was Motorhead being used for a Pot Noodle advert about 15 years back that changed things there, but I could be wrong).

And just look at the fuss about Jay-Z last year .... while there were many who obviously embraced it even tho it wasn't their music of choice, there were also very many who refused to even consider it as anyway right. To quote a certain loud-mouthed Manc: "Jay-Z? No way".

Why do you think that non-whites would be more embracing of things different to their and their families culture than whites? I'd say that for every festie goer only around 10% or 20% would consider themselves a fan of rap/hip-hop - a cultural based music - meaning that 80% wouldn't. Apply that in reverse to the UK's dominant musical culture of white-boy-with-guitar-rock and you can start to see that music doesn't transcend culture as much as you might think, and starts to explain why festivals are in the main a white thing (particularly when the proportion of non-whites in the UK in general isn't huge).

But it does go beyond just the music side I think, into fashion and beyond. The likes of womad, which should, if just about musical culture, attract a very high proprtion of non-whites doesn't particularly, tho I guess a part of that could be due to the very wide mix on offer rather than it being specialised and then attracting a strong crowd around that speciality. Perhaps in part it's because us brits are turning into cultural tourists, while others have a stronger link to their ethic-based cultures.

Edited June 3, 2009 by eFestivals

[scorp]

festivals as a whole are extremely white ... and dare I say it, middle class. Its a part of that culture, and not a part of other cultures.

It's not helped along by the sorts of reactions that were given last year when Glastonbury went out on a limb and booked one of the world's biggest acts who happens to be black and who happens to do music outside of the average white middle class person's comfort zone. Because of that reaction festivals will be put off booking acts that don't suit white middle class punters, with the result that the white middle class festival-going culture is re-enforced.

[scorp]

I'm black and can't really say I noticed.

I don't think i'd really care either. I think another problem is that a lot of black people do not like to camp. No idea why, there is not a chance in hell of anyone of my relatives going at all.

I guess for every wigger there is, there's someone like me who goes in the opposite direction.

And as for Jay-Z, I let that cloud my judgement last year and chose not to go, which I deeply regretted, hence why i'm so excited for this years.

[dieweener]

Right, firstly I hope that I am not generalising too much. Talking race/culture always worries me incase I offend someone - a shame as I am really interested in learning about other cultures.

Could it be that a lot of black immigrants of my parents generation had come from rather warm and sunny countries and the last thing they fancied doing when they moved to England was go camping in the cold of England. Could this then have passed down to their children, my generation (I'm 25 by the way) and therefore meant that there are less black people who opt for camping holidays because it is just something that has never really appealed or been part of their life? I don't think that is the only reason but maybe that goes partly towards explaining why.

In our group last year we had one of my friends who is English but of Caribbean descent and another who is English but of mixed West African and British descent. Both are returning this year. We will also have another black girl in our group who was born and bred in Africa, although moved here as a teenager.

[.jay.]

even when glasto was much more working class and new age traveller it was very white. the minute handful of blacks was into dealing.

[eFestivals]

i remember thinking i was the only "ethnic minority" in 2007, (apart from the drug dealers..) last year though there was a noticeably higher amount of people from ethnic minorities, and it defo improved the vibe of the place i feel.

strangely, there used to be a much greater ethnic mix at Glastonbury 20+ years ago than there is now.

In part I think this is due to Glastonbury becoming largely the domain of white-boy-indie-rock, which it didn't used to be - tho of course that type of music has become dominant in more than just Glastonbury over that time.

[dieweener]

tut! you missed leonard :-)

[scorp]

I had never considered that idea until I had read multiple posts saying something along those lines. I know one person makes no difference really, but I just thought it was funny that out of many friends I know who live close, she is the only one who flat out refuses to camp. In hindsight I was making a huge generalisation. But it might possibly be a valid point, even if its just because more white people went to scouts etc

[.jay.]

Swim Club?

[eFestivals]

even when glasto was much more working class and new age traveller it was very white. the minute handful of blacks was into dealing.

that's not true - and I hope you know it.

There was far more non-white casual participation (rather than spectatorism) in the festival in the past than there is now, thru things such as soundsystems and the like. I guess much of that disappeared when Glastonbury stopped vehicles driving onto site around 20 years ago, meaning that those people were unable to create something of their own liking within the festival for when the festival didn't have entertainment to their liking (remember, there was far less entertainment-wise back then than there is now).

[dieweener]

even when glasto was much more working class and new age traveller it was very white. the minute handful of blacks was into dealing.

[dieweener]

well i wasn't in many clubs gimme a break!

[Bradders]

This is much more of a cultural issue than a 'colour of your skin' thing. Just thought I'd point that out to the people who didn't get it.

[mandypants]

I fail to see the cubscout connection too, totally agree with Dieweener that it was probably more of the fact that those sorts of groups are, on the whole, run by the Christian church. It's only in recent years that parents have started to push those boundaries and for people from other religions to ask why their child can't be included, and indeed, there is no reason why they can't.

I think, on the whole, it will take many more generations before a true multi-cultural community can be achieved for real simply because there is still misunderstanding and fear of the unknown and not enough education to overcome this. When I was at school 20 years ago we didn't learn about Sikhs or Hindus or Muslims or Rastafarians, or anything like that in Religious Education, it was still predominantly a Christian subject. I think (I hope) that things are changing with the latest generation of children, that schools are giving a more balanced education in this respect, and teaching more awareness of cultural differences.

In the meantime we need to try harder to understand each other, who knows, that Asian friend of yours might secretly like the idea of going to Glasto but needs a bit of encouragement to go with you!