Foxy Knoxy

[-pogo-]

Equally as a feminist, I could point out that much of the boys club nature of these threads makes it an unappealing place in which to post for many groups.

[feral chile]

It was never suggested that it was, just that it was a derogatory comment to make and, therefore, homophobic.

Do you think it coincidental that these discussion boards are excessively dominated (to a huge degree) by white, heterosexual males?

[feral chile]

But still exists the opportunity to change/challenge that.

[strudders]

I understand what you're saying. But homophobic is such an emotive term (implying hatred) that using it is likely to deflect from the (valid in my opinion) point you were making.

[feral chile]

I don't think that Oaf meant it in a Homophobic way as I don't think he is homophobic, what I would like to think the debate is about is the fact that it IS a homophobic word and recognition of this fact.

Its about boundary of what is acceptable language to use and what is not.

Edited December 7, 2009 by feral chile

[llcoolphil]

I don't think that Oaf meant it in a Homophobic way as I don't think he is homophobic, what I would like to think the debate is about is the fact that it IS a homophobic word and recognition of this fact.

Its about boundary of what is acceptable language to use and what is not.

[llcoolphil]

Yes, I agree with this. It's about the word itself, and its effects, not implying anything necessarily about the intent of the user.

[llcoolphil]

But still exists the opportunity to change/challenge that.

[feral chile]

Do you know that throughout this and other threads I have repeatedly made the point that if you aren't homophobic or racist, don't use homophobic or racist language. I even said earlier in this thread that using homophobic language doesn't make someone a homophobe - similarly with racism - though I know plenty of people who would disagree with me on that and suggest I am appeasing ignorance.

[llcoolphil]

I think it's that the word almost implies intent. It's like saying you feel bullied by someone - the person who's made you feel like that might not think of themselves as a bully. So to deny that they're a bully, they deny that anyone's been bullied.

[feral chile]

Deny that anyone feels that they have been bullied? Being bullied and feeling that you have been bullied feels identical to the receiver but the difference has the potential to make the perceived bully reconsider their actions - if that makes sense?

[llcoolphil]

Yes. But the word bully is another emotive one, because it implies intent. If you said, I felt intimidated by what you did the other day, the other person can respond to that without losing self esteem. because then the focus is on the person who's been hurt. They can explain they didn't mean to hurt anyone, and apologise/review their behaviour.

But if you say, you were being homophobic/you bullied me. This implies the act was done by a homophobe/bully. It focuses on the person who's caused the hurt. So to deny that they're a nasty person, they'll deny the effects of what they've done.

[feral chile]

But how do you point out to someone that the language they are using is homophobic? I cant say i felt intimidated by it, or offended by it or upset by it. If you are using racist or homophobic language, there are two options - you are either doing it deliberately or you are doing it out of ignorance and not aware of what the language you are using means. Either way, you are using racist or homophobic language. If you aren't doing it deliberately, why get uppity when someone points it out?

[rachbon]

Surely she could only show remorse if she was guilty? So if she was innocent, or wanted to show that she was, then showing remorse would be the worst thing she could do.

[llcoolphil]

You could point out that some people might get upset by the terms used, because the words have been used in the past to put them down.

I think the word homophobic has such negative connotations itself now that nobody wants to be associated with it. So they'll just switch to blanket denial mode and stop listening.

[feral chile]

And how many times could someone post homophobic or racist or sexist language before one began to assume it was deliberate? You see for me, if you are going to use the phrase 'carpet muncher', you better have a bloody good understanding of the implications of its use. Ignorance isn't an excuse when the word 'lesbian' was a perfectly valid alternative that could have been used without changing the meaning of what was being said.

It is exactly why I never call anyone a racist or a homophobe on these boards - Id still rather save them for those occassions that I know it to be the case. Friends on the receiving end of both question why.

Edited December 7, 2009 by feral chile

[Greeny_Musicchild]

wow...10 whole pages today, all still on the subject of whether 'Carpet Muncher' is offensive in this context.

What i find amazing is that people are making judgment's of peoples personalities based on the casual use of a phrase on a message board. Maybe that say's more about the accusers than the accused?

If i use the term Gay or Fag, something a long that vein, but i'm not homophobic, my words hold no malicious intent and are not said to anyone who could possibly be offended by them, is it still wrong? Does a tree falling in the woods make a sound if no one is around to hear it?

Hasn't this all gone a little far?

Again.

[feral chile]

wow...10 whole pages today, all still on the subject of whether 'Carpet Muncher' is offensive in this context.

What i find amazing is that people are making judgment's of peoples personalities based on the casual use of a phrase on a message board. Maybe that say's more about the accusers than the accused?

If i use the term Gay or Fag, something a long that vein, but i'm not homophobic, my words hold no malicious intent and are not said to anyone who could possibly be offended by them, is it still wrong? Does a tree falling in the woods make a sound if no one is around to hear it?

Hasn't this all gone a little far?

Again.

[llcoolphil]

wow...10 whole pages today, all still on the subject of whether 'Carpet Muncher' is offensive in this context

[llcoolphil]

I think oafc used what he thought was a humourous term, in a jokey manner.

[brighteyes]

This thread reminds me of the Type O Negative song 'I Like Goils'. I think Phil would be appalled by it. Certainly some homophobic language in there... can something be hilariously homophobic? Does that make me homophobic, for finding something hilariously homophobic?

I don't particularly like being told what not to say, within reason.

[Greeny_Musicchild]

No clearly not. But using the term carpet muncher as a referent for lesbian when you have no ability to judge who may or may not be offended would always be wrong. It's not difficult.

[llcoolphil]

To me it's not the use of the word but the intent with which it is spoken.

[llcoolphil]

This thread reminds me of the Type O Negative song 'I Like Goils'. I think Phil would be appalled by it. Certainly some homophobic language in there... can something be hilariously homophobic? Does that make me homophobic, for finding something hilariously homophobic?

I don't particularly like being told what not to say, within reason.

Edited December 7, 2009 by llcoolphil

[strudders]

Yes, i see your point. I suppose i object more to the earlier insinuation that because you are part of a minority it would be ok for you to use said racial/sexist/whatever slur, which i don't think is the correct way f thinking about it. Reading back i'm not sure that's what you originally meant.

I think it must be done contextually. There's not always harmful intent behind such uses of language and IMO that's the real issue, intent. If i walk up to a black guy and drop the N bomb (doesn't feel right writing it even though it conflicts with my point slightly.) does that make me a racist?

To me it's not the use of the word but the intent with which it is spoken. They're all just words, it's the hate that needs to go away. I don't feel there's anything wrong with calling you a carpet muncher (you carpet muncher) in fact, because there is no hateful connotations linked to that when i say it to you.

But i see your point, i do. As long as any hate still exists in the world at large it can't be seen as acceptable. With an issue like sex or race it's important to keep those standards.