Plastic Surgery

[strudders]

And at the end of existence there will be no one to see that nothing ever happened.

We're all going to die and we can't stop it. That's the issue we all faced a long time ago. Ironically, it's exactly what George Carlin is going on about in that skit.

Environmentalism is for middle class white people and the world couldn't give a shit, according to him. I agree with the last part.

[worm]

who said anything about environmentalism? I was talking about the fact we do f**k up our environment to the detriment of our own well being.

[feral chile]

who said anything about environmentalism? I was talking about the fact we do f**k up our environment to the detriment of our own well being. its the fact we do it, full stop. We kill each other regardless of the cost to those around us. We sent somebody to the moon yet we cant be arsed to sort out the hunger on this planet, we destroy the green shit that gives the air its oxygen. All so we can stick a spread on our toast or make a fuel to say we are doing something about "global warming".

What I am saying is we are dumb, we are dumb because we think we are clever, when in fact we are just as George said, a insignificant time line on a 4 billion year old lump of rock sat in the sweet spot. We are no more important than a lump of moss on my roof, yet we think we are the only inelegant life form in the universe.

The more people think they are clever, the more people think we are important and the more people think we are indispensable, the dumber we become. Caught in the glare of self "human greatness", blinded by our own self worth and lost in a sea of ignorance.

I know I am not important, pretty useless as a life form in fact and just a chemical reaction waiting to finish to be returned to the atmosphere.

[worm]

The more people think they are clever, the more people think we are important and the more people think we are indispensable, the dumber we become. Caught in the glare of self "human greatness", blinded by our own self worth and lost in a sea of ignorance.

[worm]

I know I am not important, pretty useless as a life form in fact and just a chemical reaction waiting to finish to be returned to the atmosphere.

Edited December 4, 2010 by worm

[worm]

Well said. I agree, we're just a bag of genetic material. We think we're special, though, because of language - because we know we're just a bag of genetic material. Does knowing it make us more than what we are?

Dunno. We're a bloody arrogant species of animal though.

Edited December 4, 2010 by worm

[feral chile]

What on earth is 'a bag of genetic material'? That just sounds like some kind of athiestic romanticism to me. The new age 'noble savage' or some such rubbish.

Edited December 4, 2010 by feral chile

[strudders]

Then you were referring to environmentalism weren't you. You were explicitely citing environmental concerns as evidence of our being a dumb animal.

What I said to you was that any animal that is aware and responds to that awareness cannot be said to be dumb.

[strudders]

But important enough to judge humanity in a single breath?

[worm]

I think we're conscious animals, and while I agree that in some ways that makes us unusual, I also think it gives us the tendency to dress up what we are.

Edited December 5, 2010 by worm

[worm]

I am not judging anything,

I am stating a view which I see to be right.

[feral chile]

Yes we do dress things up, like the insistence that we are 'dumb animals' and/or 'bags of genetic materials' unable to 'fix our environment'. All totally superficial definitions. Surely the clever animal wouldn't care about its name and would instead concentrate on how to fix important things like sexism, poverty and cultural differences.

This man doesn't. I wish you'd stop with this horrible stereotype.

Edited December 5, 2010 by feral chile

[strudders]

That's what judgement is.

Edited December 5, 2010 by strudders

[feral chile]

Yes we do dress things up, like the insistence that we are 'dumb animals' and/or 'bags of genetic materials' unable to 'fix our environment'. All totally superficial definitions. Surely the clever animal wouldn't care about its name and would instead concentrate on how to fix important things like sexism, poverty and cultural differences.

[worm]

yes, but that's precisely what I'm arguing.

Edited December 5, 2010 by worm

[feral chile]

Exactly, thereby suffering from the exact thing you've accused humanity of - dressing itself up; getting side tracked by its own self importance; labelling.

Life is occuring right now. Why spend time in the past trying to label what we have been?

[worm]

Then are you not being Judgemental on saying humanity is clever?

[worm]

Oh you crafty sod! You know I hate labels!

Anyway, If I'm guilty of those things, it's only because I'm part of humanity.

[strudders]

Yes. I'm arguing that we are clever because we can judge. Dumb things can't judge.

Clever doesn't mean that you are free from mistakes or are in some way altruistic. Rather, cleverness is inherently selfish and is the net result of adapting to errors.

[worm]

Then I am arguing that we have not adapted to errors. Just as you believe we are clever I believe we are dumb.

[worm]

every (living) thing judges in some way

Edited December 5, 2010 by worm

[strudders]

No you aren't. You're arguing that we are a dumb animal. You are saying that we are an animal that is marked by its dumbness. But we aren't. We are an animal that is marked by its intelligence and ability to judge and adapt. You exemplify this when you evaluate our inability to adapt to our environment as being a dumb action - only an intelligent being would say that this was dumb as opposed to clever.

Just because we have a heavily industrialised geo-political system that is threatened by environmental change does not mean that we are dumb. It actually means the opposite: that we have realised that there is a problem - no other animal has done that.

I was saying that every judgement or evaluation you make, such as dumb and clever, is done so by humanity and humanity alone. It is not apparent in the environment. Dumb and clever are human judgements.

We are the only animal that knows that there is a limit. And every organism alters its environment. That's what all life does.

The moss doesn't know its limits it just can't grow anymore. It's exactly because we recognise that the moss has a limit that we are an intelligent animal. A dumb animal wouldn't have a clue.

Can we get back to the point now?

[worm]

Ether way you spin it, to think we are clever is not right when you consider we do so much wrong.

[feral chile]

so before we had a language we were unable to make judgements?

we've been here before, and it doesn't make any sense (to me)

animals are aware

what do you mean we came up with judgement? every animal judges. They wouldn't try and eat a burning lump of coal for instance

Edited December 5, 2010 by feral chile

[worm]

so before we had a language we were unable to make judgements?

Edited December 5, 2010 by worm