The Royal Wedding

[Cardboard Box City]

Nope, it's not - fascism is merely an extension of nationalism, it's not something separate and distinct.

...

All (strict) fascism really added to that were laws which concreted in place that scenario, so that the establishment could not be easily displaced by those from 'below'.

[Radar]

Fascism is the very belief that you know what is best for other people. As just about any living philosopher on earth will tell you, we are all capable of being fascist. This is entirely why democracy is regarded as the antithesis of fascism.

[eFestivals]

Wrong.

Fascism is the very belief that you know what is best for other people. As just about any living philosopher on earth will tell you, we are all capable of being fascist. This is entirely why democracy is regarded as the antithesis of fascism.

Care to tell me how nationalism is different to that?

Both cases require someone to stand up and convince others that only they (or their clique, whatever) know the solution to all of the problems. Strict fascism requires a nation to take on the role of being that fascist, its something that can only built on top of an existing nationalistic view, it is not something that can be taken up by an un-manipulated democracy.

[worm]

the USA alone are the one that can't handle the criticism they invite.

[eFestivals]

You said that "Nationalism always translates into "only we know what's best for others"". Which it doesn't - the SNP for example, as well as all other liberal or civic nationalist groups, don't advocate what you said ("only we"), whereas the fascist state does (in the form of a one party state - Hitler, Mussolini, Franco).

The two may have ideological links, but the "only we" part is definately fascist.

Erm .... care to point out when the SNP are suggesting "vote for us, because the other parties have better ideas than us"?

Not only that, they (the SNP) very definitely ARE saying "only we". They're saying "the UK doesn't know what's best for Scotland, only Scottish people can now that - and we're the only meaningful party for Scottish people, because the other parties are not 100% Scottish".

The only real difference with the 'nationalism' of the SNP to the likes of the BNP is that they welcome anyone as able to be 'Scottish' via their residence in Scotland. The left-leaning-ness of the SNP - which differs from most nationalistic parties - is easily explained by the traditional domination of the English right on the politics of Scotland, and is merely a reaction against that.

[worm]

Care to tell me how nationalism is different to that?

[eFestivals]

Erm, inviting people to criticise itself is evidence that it very much can handle it. Obviously.

You mean that the government doesn't like it. The government is not the entirity of US culture.

No, I mean (as a generalisation) 'the people' - roughly 80% of them (as proven by opinion polls over the last 180(ish) years).

For the proof of what I say, just consider the idea that 'French fries' should now be called 'Freedom Fries' which took root when the French refused to back the invasion of Iraq.

Neil or established knowledge? Hmmmmm. I'll stick with analysis of Gramsci, Said and Chomsky thanks.

Try Anatol Lieven instead, for a more balanced and less biased view.

[worm]

I wouldn't agree with that, understandably...

[worm]

No, I mean (as a generalisation) 'the people' - roughly 80% of them (as proven by opinion polls over the last 180(ish) years).

For the proof of what I say, just consider the idea that 'French fries' should now be called 'Freedom Fries' which took root when the French refused to back the invasion of Iraq.

[eFestivals]

That isn't relevant. You said that nationalism is essential to fascism. It isn't.

it is.

Unless you're able to show me any fascist idea that is able to sustain itself outside of a nationalistic state?

Nevertheless, nationalism is differentto that as it is simply the belief in a nation or nation state.

You really think that's what it is?

No wonder you talk so much shite.

It can be a democratic nation, fascist nation, liberal socialist nation anarcho-syndicalist nation or any other kind of nation.

But it's always a nation that is always more right than others. "My nation, right or wrong" - which means that the nation gets support even when that support is against what an individual believes. The nation (or a portrayal of what that nation is meant to be, rather than what it necessarily is) comes before sense, logic, rationality, everything; the person is subsumed to the nations (supposed) needs.

Mussolini or Hitler could not have gained power for their fascism without first subsuming their populations to a nationalistic ideal. Their fascism only had the strength it did because of first exploiting nationalism.

And to put it into a more modern context, George W Bush could not have been re-elected without exploiting nationalism sentiments (and using bullshit to do so), and the British monarchy could not survive without a similar dependence on hyping up nationalist sentiments - which is precisely what this wedding is doing, as demonstrated in this very thread: "we don't need those foreign ideas to get our head of state, look, they cost just as much". Which they might do (tho few actually do in reality), but the important part to modernity is not the cost, it's accountability, for which there is none.

[Cardboard Box City]

Erm .... care to point out when the SNP are suggesting "vote for us, because the other parties have better ideas than us"?

Not only that, they (the SNP) very definitely ARE saying "only we". They're saying "the UK doesn't know what's best for Scotland, only Scottish people can now that - and we're the only meaningful party for Scottish people, because the other parties are not 100% Scottish".

[eFestivals]

You mean I should consider anecdotal evidence? Please.

No, the anecdotal evidence was offered up only as that, as a backup to 180(ish) years worth of polling of Americans and their attitudes (which can be placed alongside the same number of years of polling of Europeans, and their often hugely different attitudes of the last 100 years or so).

So go consider those 180 years wortth of polls, which you clearly know f**k all about, and instead rely on your own anecdotal evidence which re-enforce your existing bias.

So you've read Said then have you?

I've read some, no idea how much of his output it is.

Given that Said is an non-american other who was at the forefront of global studies and Lieven says nothing about otherness, I reckon he'll do for me.

Yeah, very non-American.

American father; Christian mother, both Anglophiles: American educated and resident.

[worm]

it is.

Unless you're able to show me any fascist idea that is able to sustain itself outside of a nationalistic state?

But it's always a nation that is always more right than others.

[eFestivals]

They've still not enforced the 'only we' notion that you suggest would bar them from allowing the power or ideals of others to impact on the state (in this case at Holyrood).

Eh? Since when has an idea had to implemented to the most extreme version of that idea to be classed as being that idea?

The clue to their nationalism is in their very name. They meet the "only we" criteria.

The fact that they marry that "only we" idea with the democratic idea does not detract anything from their belief that only the Scottish are able to make the right decisions for Scotland.

Using such a broad sense of "only we" can be viewed as being the notion of every ideology or political party anywhere ever, and not just nationalism. A narrow sense of "only we" in relation to nationalism would indicate fascism.

Yep, I agree 100% with the first sentence of yours there - it does apply everywhere. But that has nothing necessarily to do with nationalism; there is no claim with it that outsiders have nothing to offer - unlike with the SNP which believes that only those within Scotland can make the right choices for Scotland.

Edited November 22, 2010 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

What are you drivelling on about?

Nationalism = the belief in a nation state.

Fascism = the belief that you are better suited to know the values of life.

They are not the same thing. You can be a fascist without being a nationalist. There being a nation state is irrelevant.

I've not said they're the same thing.

I have said that fascism is only able to be implemented onto a people (who will then support that fascism) within a nationalist idea.

It (fascism) piggie-backs on top of nationalism. It can only stand alone without nationalism if there's a 'proper' dictatorship (which neither Hitler or Mussolini were initially).

[worm]

No, the anecdotal evidence was offered up only as that, as a backup to 180(ish) years worth of polling of Americans and their attitudes (which can be placed alongside the same number of years of polling of Europeans, and their often hugely different attitudes of the last 100 years or so).

So go consider those 180 years wortth of polls, which you clearly know f**k all about, and instead rely on your own anecdotal evidence which re-enforce your existing bias.

I've read some, no idea how much of his output it is.

Yeah, very non-American.

American father; Christian mother, both Anglophiles: American educated and resident.

Edited November 22, 2010 by worm

[worm]

I've not said they're the same thing.

I have said that fascism is only able to be implemented onto a people (who will then support that fascism) within a nationalist idea.

It (fascism) piggie-backs on top of nationalism. It can only stand alone without nationalism if there's a 'proper' dictatorship (which neither Hitler or Mussolini were initially).

[Radar]

Good. It's good to challenge assertions.

It's pretty difficult to think of a person who does not ever reckon that they know how best another should behave though. And when this is not tempered by the ego, it becomes the very essence of fascism.

[worm]

For me, Fascism requires a state apparatus to which a mass of people are loyal.

[eFestivals]

He is perfectly placed to write about American cultural hegemony and its homogenising ideology of otherness.

Nope, not "perfectly". He is a part of that hegemony as much as he is aside from it.

But anyway ... American nationalism being much the same as pre-1914 European nationalism (and so making all the same mistakes) is a matter of fact and not opinion. Pleasingly, the American political system means that the world experiences less of it than we'd otherwise do, just as the UK not having constant Tory govts lessens the UK's own.

[eFestivals]

You said fascism only occurs through nationalism and that fascism is essential to nationalism. You started by saying that fascism was nationalism. As you can work out from what the two words mean, that is most definitely not the case.

I was talking from the point of view of any nation state, and not individuals.

But you've said me 100% wrong anyway - I've said that fascism only occurs thru nationalism, but I've not said that fascism is essential to nationalism - I said the precise opposite, that nationalism is essential to fascism. I had no intention at all of mentioning fascism and we're only here because others brought it up.

[Radar]

That's a fascist state due, not fascism.

[eFestivals]

Was there a missing "d" in that sentence?

My head is very fuzzy, but I don't really believe that the political theory "fascism" can be represented on an individual basis - though people may have "typically fascist views"

If that makes no sense, I will endeavour to clear my head further...

I agree with you 100% - after all, how can an individual implement a corporist(sp?) state?

Fascism is a complete set of ideas, not something that a person can pick partsd out of to use as they see fit - if we're going to take that angle then people can end up saying very very stupid things (that are 100% true from within that angle) such as "socialism and capitalism are identical".

Edited November 22, 2010 by eFestivals

[feral chile]

For me, Fascism requires a state apparatus to which a mass of people are loyal.

On an individual level, I would disagree that "thinking you know best" makes you a fascist - though it may make social integration difficult if one takes that attitude on every possible topic

Edited November 22, 2010 by feral chile

[Radar]

Aha... Radar (despite his head being *very* fuzzy) may have had a valid point.

*does faintly embarrassing dance*