Robbery by another name

[Uncle Liam]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11782356

Surprised this hasnt been covered on the baord yet, or at least got its own thread.

[bunique]

*checks if Liam started a similar thread when Greece were bailed out*

No?

[Uncle Liam]

*checks if Liam started a similar thread when Greece were bailed out*

No?

[bunique]

Tough times ahead?! The country is utterly on its arse already - god knows how much worse things can get.

[The Nal]

Corporation tax will have to go up, so bye bye outside investment. Tough times ahead methinks.

[bunique]

I wonder how much tribunal after tribunal after tribunal (ad infinitum) cost the country?!

[eFestivals]

If that happens and the multi nationals pull out, the people who built the Celtic Tiger, we are well and truly f**ked.

then you're f**ked.

Ireland has NOT "built the Celtic Tiger", they've stolen businesses from other countries with the very simple idea of undercutting those other countries.

It was the last throw of the dice to try and stop things going this way, which they were always going to do, worldwide financial meltdown or not.

[Alcatraz]

As long as the Guiness keeps flowing in, do we care?

[lost]

I read an article recently that said the entire Irish crisis can be traced to loans made to 12 property developers...

having interest rates set for the German economy was always going to end in tears...

[The Nal]

Ireland has NOT "built the Celtic Tiger", they've stolen businesses from other countries with the very simple idea of undercutting those other countries.

Edited November 18, 2010 by The Nal

[5co77ie]

I read an article recently that said the entire Irish crisis can be traced to loans made to 12 property developers...

[Snufflebutt]

then you're f**ked.

Ireland has NOT "built the Celtic Tiger", they've stolen businesses from other countries with the very simple idea of undercutting those other countries.

It was the last throw of the dice to try and stop things going this way, which they were always going to do, worldwide financial meltdown or not.

[lost]

Nah, I read the papers it's Labour's fault.

[Uncle Liam]

The difference between this crisis and the greek crisis is that whilst the Greek economy was overcommitted and lax in terms of its spending, this has been caused by nothing but sheer greed and corruption. The Greek economy was poorly structured and in hindsight probably not suited to joining the Euro when it did. The Irish economic crisis has been caused by the greed of the corporations, the encouragement of this greed by the government, and (the same as it was over here) the greed of the people. People had to have the new house, the new car, the holiday etc.

The book "ship of fools" sums it up quite well. Bertie played the all things to all men card, and the people liked it as long as the times were good, but no one clocked on that this couldnt last. It was always madness. Which is why I have no sympathy and why I refer to this as a robbery, because thats basically what it is.

The conditions on this should be nothing less than absolutely draconian. Its pretty clear that the Irish Republic is incapable of running its economy successfully unless someone is throwing buckets of money at it (and even then, they seem able to f**k it up) and after now forty years of going cap in hand to the European Union, and nearly a century of dependency of Britain and the US, frankly it has to stop.

[Uncle Liam]

The reason why Ireland has, up until now, seemed reluctant to take the bailout is because it knows Germany will demand it puts corporation tax up.

Ireland cannot be allowed to fail. Far too many countries have lots of money invested in the country - lots more than Greece.

[Stash]

This is actually the bizarre paradox of it all.

The arrogant Irish government who have helped bring this on Europe, know that they actually have the power here. Because Europe knows that Ireland cannot be allowed to fail and therefore they can state whatever conditions they want, but in reality Ireland can just not agree to any conditions it doesnt want. So the Irish Deputy PM says corporation tax is "non negotiable." I've never heard a more arrogant statement in my life.

The Irish f**k up, and yet when they do, they have the power in the negotiations. Disgusting.

[Uncle Liam]

And you think having the vast majority of inward investment leaving these shores within a few years will be a positive outcome to everyone involved do you?

[Stash]

Liam, your anti Irish tirades do get very tired very quickly. Yes, Dell moving to Poland, with the incentive of Polish government aid packages wasn't the brightest day in Limerick's history, but I don't think it had anything to do with the arrogance of the population of Limerick.

The 12.5% corporation tax is a heavy incentive for multinationals to base themselves in Ireland, but then again most governments use some incentive or other to pull inward investment into their countries. I would be more concerned that the 12.5% rate is used by companies such as google to funnel profits through Ireland to the west indies, via the Netherlands. It is that sort of tax avoidance that really needs to be tightened up.

The fact that the morally bankrupt fianna fail government will fight tooth and nail to retain the 12.5% tax rate is probably the only think that will mean the bailout will actually do it's job. Otherwise too much business will leave the island and the country will struggle to get off it's knees. The only reason that Germany and France might want to abolish that rate as part of the bailout is because they want a piece of the multi national action that might leave. This bailout is purely a self interest issue for all countries involved. I am sure that the Brians will have to make difficult concessions, and the bailout will probably hurt individual taxpayers much more than corporations, but without jobs they are all f**ked anyway. No? The one thing that is probably going to kick off will be civil service positions, which are supposed to be secured by the Croke Park agreement (in a way at least).

Whilst I realise that your rabid anti irish fetish is ammusing to you, why don't you think a bit deeper on the situation, before gloating like a spoilt child.

[Uncle Liam]

Erm... no actually.

Increasing corporation tax is a perfectly rational and fair thing to do. The British government has cut public spending and is increasing taxes to cut its deficit. Why should the Irish government not have to do the same? You know, raise some money itself instead of just demanding a handout. Germany and France have been pouring money into Ireland for nearly forty years via the EU, its hardly unfair to expect the Irish Republic to make a contribution to getting out of the mess they've got themselves into.

And how is this 'anti irish'? Is a simple and fair minded interpretation of the facts anti anything? I dont see how else you could describe the actions of the irish government this week, especially the comments of the Deputy Prime Minister as anything but arrogant.

[llcoolphil]

It is the arrogance of the Irish Republic that got themselves into this trouble, what with its lax regulation, pandering to big business thinking that the boom years would last forever

[Uncle Liam]

You could quite easily substitute 'British' or 'American' for 'Irish Republic' and make exactly the same point

[Stash]

Apart from the fact that neither the US or the UK have gone running to other countries to get them out of the mess they were in.

[llcoolphil]

Apart from the fact that neither the US or the UK have gone running to other countries to get them out of the mess they were in.

[dakyras]

When Uncle Liam looks in the mirror in the morning, this is what he sees:

[Uncle Liam]

Id say the essential difference between a bailout and borrowing billions every month isn't that great. Id also say that this situation is a banking crisis. And banking crises are international not national and the inevitable consequence of capitalism. With a smaller economy, we would be in an identical situation

Edited November 21, 2010 by Uncle Liam