Robbery by another name

[Stash]

So whats your point? Your posts read as follows:

"Ireland, like other countries is affected by a global recession and has been economically mismanaged over the past few years, but I can't stand the Irish so lets have a good laugh at them, the theiving b*stards!"

Grow up liam.

[Uncle Liam]

I'm not laughing. Doesnt make my life any easier, makes my life more difficult.

Although there does seem to be a double standard on this board:

Bailing out banks because of incompetence= bad.

Bailing out states because of incompetence= if not good then certainly acceptable.

I was thinking about this earlier, and I'm not sure about the answer. Is there really that much of a difference between the Republic of Ireland and the way it was run, and the way football clubs like Portsmouth or Leeds United were run? Both living well beyond their means on borrowed money in an attempt to portray themselves at a higher level than they actually are or ever realistically could be.

And another thing. Ireland has been playing the awkward European for several years now. My mate pointed out that the Irish were very pro European when it was German marks building roads in rural areas, but not so happy when it was Irish money doing the same in Estonia. The Irish took billions out of the EU for decades and barely half a decade after the money stopped, they require a bailout of 90% of GDP. Its absolutely unbelievable. Especially on a state which prides, and in many ways bases itself on its independence.

And to think the UK government cancelled that £80 Million loan to Sheffield forgemasters, yet is now throwing billions at the Irish. Absolutely disgusting.

[Stash]

I'm not laughing. Doesnt make my life any easier, makes my life more difficult.

Although there does seem to be a double standard on this board:

Bailing out banks because of incompetence= bad.

Bailing out states because of incompetence= if not good then certainly acceptable.

I was thinking about this earlier, and I'm not sure about the answer. Is there really that much of a difference between the Republic of Ireland and the way it was run, and the way football clubs like Portsmouth or Leeds United were run? Both living well beyond their means on borrowed money in an attempt to portray themselves at a higher level than they actually are or ever realistically could be.

And another thing. Ireland has been playing the awkward European for several years now. My mate pointed out that the Irish were very pro European when it was German marks building roads in rural areas, but not so happy when it was Irish money doing the same in Estonia. The Irish took billions out of the EU for decades and barely half a decade after the money stopped, they require a bailout of 90% of GDP. Its absolutely unbelievable. Especially on a state which prides, and in many ways bases itself on its independence.

And to think the UK government cancelled that £80 Million loan to Sheffield forgemasters, yet is now throwing billions at the Irish. Absolutely disgusting.

[eFestivals]

I think what people are missing here is this....

The bailout doesn't much matter. They're in need of the bailout and they're going to get it. Not a lot more needs saying.

But with regard to their low corp tax, they introduced that as a way to try and stave off the need for a bailout and it's failed. Not only has it failed, but it's introduced the idea of a bidding war on corp tax amongst countries, which if followed thru on can only be very very good for corporations while screwing the peoples of every country in the world.

So it's the case that not only can Ireland not afford to raise its corp tax rates to try and rebalance its economy, every other country needs it to too, else the world economy is going to screw each and every one of us.

[The Nal]

I think what people are missing here is this....

The bailout doesn't much matter. They're in need of the bailout and they're going to get it. Not a lot more needs saying.

But with regard to their low corp tax, they introduced that as a way to try and stave off the need for a bailout and it's failed. Not only has it failed, but it's introduced the idea of a bidding war on corp tax amongst countries, which if followed thru on can only be very very good for corporations while screwing the peoples of every country in the world.

So it's the case that not only can Ireland not afford to raise its corp tax rates to try and rebalance its economy, every other country needs it to too, else the world economy is going to screw each and every one of us.

[Stash]

I think what people are missing here is this....

The bailout doesn't much matter. They're in need of the bailout and they're going to get it. Not a lot more needs saying.

But with regard to their low corp tax, they introduced that as a way to try and stave off the need for a bailout and it's failed. Not only has it failed, but it's introduced the idea of a bidding war on corp tax amongst countries, which if followed thru on can only be very very good for corporations while screwing the peoples of every country in the world.

So it's the case that not only can Ireland not afford to raise its corp tax rates to try and rebalance its economy, every other country needs it to too, else the world economy is going to screw each and every one of us.

[Uncle Liam]

You see that is your problem. You spout a loud of nonsense about something you clearly know nothing about. The bailout IS to bail out the banks (yet again), not the state. It is only being considered because most of the bonds are held by German & French instituations that may also fail should the Irish banks default on their current loans.

The Irish state has traditionally had very low soveriegn debt in comparison to other EU contries and much lower than the UK.

I don't know who your mate is or their qualifications in this matter, but did he perform a poll of Irish sentiment to EU funding that we are not aware of?

As for the fact that the UK may offer a loan to Ireland (direct or otherwise & amount currently unknown), it is again purely in terms of UK self interest. So many companies between the two states are interlinked and would suffer a lot by a significant Irish depression, two examples would be Tesco (Ireland is it's highest earning european market in terms of % profit) and Ulster Bank (76% owned by UK PLC and the 3rd largest bank (and possibly currently the safest?) in Ireland. The impact of possible losses to the UK economy are obviously enough to justify this in the minds of the treasury.

[eFestivals]

The corp tax had to stay the same, theres no guarantee that these countries would've even set up European HQs in Europe, and if they left Ireland theres no guarantee they'd stay in Europe. Unless you want to speak to your efests hosting company in India?!

Have there been that many of the companies that have set-up in Ireland which had no European presence previously? If there are, then I'd think they're a very low proportion.

But if it's all of the companies that Ireland has acquired, what actual effect is it having? Is it (scenario 1) bringing a greater amount of business to Europe, or is it (scenario 2) merely swapping the business done by one company where they paid a decent amount of tax with the same amount of business now done with another company but which pays minimal tax (and so where only the business owners get to benefit)?

The answer is scenario 2. It's a scenario that cannot be allowed to continue, unless those people on low wages right around Europe are going to be happy paying 50%+ of their income in income tax.

[The Nal]

Have there been that many of the companies that have set-up in Ireland which had no European presence previously? If there are, then I'd think they're a very low proportion.

Edited November 22, 2010 by The Nal

[eFestivals]

Yes, and its a very high proportion.

If you have time to browse through 78 pages, have a look at this. Its insane.

What that list doesn't get to say is what those companies would have done if Ireland didn't have that low corp tax rate.

Would those companies have left Europe? Very unlikely.

Would any of those which are new to Europe have avoided Europe? Very unlikely.

And the likes of the UK and everywhere else in the EU could also produce a list like that, of companies they've attracted without having low corp tax rates. So the list by itself means almost zero.

The reality is that any companies that Ireland might lose are most likely to be lost to other EU states, and any that quit the EU altogether are likely to see the business they do within the EU picked up by other EU companies.

Things like that list can't be looked at in isolation, aside from by those who want to try and mislead people into believing something that isn't.

Edited November 22, 2010 by eFestivals

[dakyras]

When you go to a bank for a mortgage, you aren't robbing it.

It's a loan.

[Uncle Liam]

And if all else fails...

I'll retract my robbery statement when the Irish government shows intent and ability to pay it back.

[llcoolphil]

I feel i'm repeating myself here, but this has been partly caused by the state pandering to the corporations

[llcoolphil]

And if all else fails...

I'll retract my robbery statement when the Irish government shows intent and ability to pay it back.

[llcoolphil]

else the world economy is going to screw each and every one of us.

Edited November 22, 2010 by llcoolphil

[Uncle Liam]

So just like the UK government pandering to the City through soft touch regulation

Like running an economic model based entirely on the basis of house prices continuing to rise permanently?

So like having three MPs about to appear in court and several hundred others having to repay expenses. When it comes to the probity of elected representatives, we aren't top of the list. Have a read at Private Eye if you want to see whether our government's perfect at how we deal with the national finances

[llcoolphil]

Apart from the fact that neither the US or the UK have gone running to other countries to get them out of the mess they were in.

[Wooderson]

So the Baron of Bogville is giving us a few billion, we then give it to our banks and stick the Irish taxpayer on the hook.

The banks then pay back the money they owe to UK banks. Sweet!

Thanks UK! We'll keep spending inordinate amounts of wonga on your Union Jack branded sambos in Marks n Sparks.

[llcoolphil]

You see, I'm not talking about the UK. I'm talking about the Republic of Ireland. Trying to defend the Irish Republic by saying what the UK does is a ridiculous position. And even if it did, we still havent gone cap in hand to the EU or IMF.

Go and read "Ship of Fools" its only a fiver from Amazon and realise that the Irish political and economic structure was corrupt from top to bottom.

[Uncle Liam]

Maybe not this time round

http://www.nationala.../imf-crisis.htm

[Uncle Liam]

I have no doubts about corruption in Irish political life. But this banking crisis is international not national. You seem to think that it's simply an irish problem when it quite clearly isn't. There are many things you can criticise the irish government for, but the banking crisis isn't one of them. Indeed they have a BoP surplus which puts their handling of their economy in a significantly better position than we run ours. And all this cap in hand stuff you keep trying to put them down for - the UK did the same thing less than a generation ago.

[llcoolphil]

But its not just a banking crisis. Sure thats a big part of it, but...

32% structural deficit

the longest and deepest recession in Europe

13% unemployment and likely to rise

Migration on a mass scale- meaning skilled workers leaving

Their economy is in a much worse position in ours, because (in theory) we can 'cut' our way out of it (i'm not saying the way the cuts have been handled is the right idea though, thats for another thread). The UK has the potential to bounce back, but its hard to see how or when the Irish economy can recover. Well, they can try praying...

Whats the difference between Ireland and Iceland? One letter and about eighteen months.

[Wooderson]

Our government arent to be trusted or believed. You Brits fuming about our low corp tax rates need to chill on the funky vibe. I've no confidence that we'll be allowed to maintain them - never mind be able to.

BTW Liam - we're more resilient than you give us credit for. We'll get through this. And we'll keep filling the coffers of the countless UK businesses and jobs we support over here thanks.

[Binky]

guess it was a good job the irish caved in to eu blackmail (nice to be in a democracy) and tucked us up by signing to the consitution thingy you knoew the one new liebour said we could vote on

and now we have to give them 7 billion like we have that spare

lets just pray or meditate that we never have to go cap in hand to the german/french boys club

[eFestivals]

So what would you suggest? leave them to default?

Ultimately, yes.

This economic crisis is not going to be solved without someone defaulting. Without someone defaulting, all of the same issues remain and we're just fiddling round the edges without solving anything. Without someone defaulting, we'll be here again and again and again and again.

Without someone defaulting, the interest rates that are charged for sovereign debts are meaningless - it simply becomes a transfer of wealth from 'normal' people to the rich on the basis of nothing at all, with no benefit back to those who are losing their wealth.

A simple look at growth rates, inflation rates and pay rates gets to show that we've all got hugely more wealthy in the last 20 years without there being the growth in production to justify it. But of course, those who have benefited the most are the richest (with the oft-stated "the rich are getting richer while the poor have got poorer" [tho that's not entirely factually accurate]) which ultimately means that there's been a transfer of wealth to those rich.

So now settlement day has come, and there's not the money to settle the debts - but somehow there's the stupid idea that all of the debts have to be paid by the poorest, and that it's morally wrong to take back the transfer of w3ealth that caused all of this.

Yet until we do, we cure nothing. At best we merely postpone the inevitable.