Student Demonstrations

[LondonTom]

I'm not bothered about politicians changing their policies or lying or whatever, obviously it's bad but it happens all the time and I don't see the point in paying attention to it.

Leaving uni with £20k-£30k debt, but not having to pay it back unless you earn over £21k a year, is reasonable - all things considered.

And the whole thing about it putting off students from poorer backgrounds from going to uni - I don't really understand that. I mean, you don't have to pay it back unless you earn over the threshold salary, and if you earn over the threshold then you're not poor anymore.

[brighteyes]

So we should just stand for them lying and scheming yeah? Not stand up to fake pledges?

Yes lets also look that the 20-30k is just for your fees not living costs while at Uni which given the current climate with the jobs market may fully have to be paid for by loans . And of course it would put people off from poorer backgrounds, its a huge amount of debt to take on at a risk you might have it hanging over you for the rest of your life...

But how many rich kids will get mummy/daddy to pay off the debt for them? or pay the fees up front and not be saddled with the debt poor kids will?

[pink_triangle]

I hear this word progressive a lot, what does it actually mean?? My impression is that it means politicians are scared of upsetting the very richest or very poorest so just try to shaft the middle as they always do.

[funkymp]

Where's the risk? There's no debt collectors knocking at your door, you only pay it back if you earn over £21k, which is a decent wage, and the repayment rates also seem reasonable enough. And it's wiped out 30 years after graduation, so it's not 'the rest of your life'.

[grumpyhack]

My concern in these discussions about access to a university education for all is that the key question of how appropriate a university education is for all has been rather overlooked. There is almost an assumption that going to uni is the thing we should all aspire to.

I'm all for upskilling the population as a whole and yes, everyone can benefit from education. But we need to look at education in a much broader way.

In many parts of europe they have 'technical universities' where crafts/skills and trades are taught. Qualifications from these institutions are held in as high a regard as those with a more 'academic' slant. We need highly skilled welders, plumbers, farmers etc as well as historians and artists so we need to raise the status of vocational qualifications from places like agricultural and technical colleges.

[worm]

My concern in these discussions about access to a university education for all is that the key question of how appropriate a university education is for all has been rather overlooked. There is almost an assumption that going to uni is the thing we should all aspire to.

I'm all for upskilling the population as a whole and yes, everyone can benefit from education. But we need to look at education in a much broader way.

It's not about upskilling.

In many parts of europe they have 'technical universities' where crafts/skills and trades are taught. Qualifications from these institutions are held in as high a regard as those with a more 'academic' slant. We need highly skilled welders, plumbers, farmers etc as well as historians and artists so we need to raise the status of vocational qualifications from places like agricultural and technical colleges.

[eFestivals]

University isn't a skill factory you know.

University is about critical thinking. It isn't about getting a job. That's entirely up to the individual once they leave.

that might be how you'd like to think of it as being (and me too!), but the simple fact is that the govt (this one, and the previous one) now think of education at all levels - from age five - as a pre-job training scheme. Their view is that education exists solely to train up tomorrow's workers.

It's extremely sad.

[worm]

that might be how you'd like to think of it as being (and me too!), but the simple fact is that the govt (this one, and the previous one) now think of education at all levels - from age five - as a pre-job training scheme. Their view is that education exists solely to train up tomorrow's workers.

[eFestivals]

They can think of it and fund it however they like. It still isn't the case.

But isn't this philosophical premise exactly what's being fought here? Isn't this the very idea that the students are fighting against? Shouldn't, in principle at least, every person be entitled to free education? Not a free step up on to a job ladder, but a free academic education? That's what academic means.

From my point of view, that's exactly what this fight is about. Unfortunately it's really a fight that was lost around ten years ago with the meek acceptance by students at that time of fees in the first place.

I'd say that for today's students the fight is more about the debts they get to start their working life with. While the govt keep on saying "but it doesn't have to be paid back unless you're earning well" (which is of course true) it doesn't alter the fact that these people will have a debt of around £40k - over two years wages (after tax) to most people - hanging over them for 30 years.

For the MPs that voted for the fees, most of them can't really grasp what the fuss is about. The chances are the majority of them are or have been spending more than £9k a year on their kid's private school fees.

Meanwhile, the govt are now giving a greater amount of financial support to rich kids at Eton than they're giving to the average degree student. It's simply disgusting.

[Paul ™]

We don't need no education

We dont need no thought control

No dark sarcasm in the classroom

Teachers leave them kids alone

Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone!

All in all it's just another brick in the wall.

All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

[pink_triangle]

Meanwhile, the govt are now giving a greater amount of financial support to rich kids at Eton than they're giving to the average degree student. It's simply disgusting.

[eFestivals]

How does that work out?? Im dont doubt your correct but have never heard about that before.

Via the charitable status that Eton (and most other private schools) have, without their being any justification for it (as stated recently by the Charity Commission).

Yes, I know that most (if not all) Uni's also have charitable status, but they are actually using their charitable status to fulfil the aims that the Charity Commission says that educational charities should have, while private schools are not.

[worm]

that's the way (I think) it should be, but it's not how the (education) system sees it or promotes. It's the end of the line of the sausage machine... churn them out with enough qualifications to take the next step.

Edited December 10, 2010 by worm

[The_Spoon]

quick thing, it's on question time at the moment. just mentioned that the poorest 25% of students will actually pay less now...

Edited December 10, 2010 by The_Spoon

[eFestivals]

Progressive my arse.

WTF is "progressive" meant to mean anyway?

It's a meaningless term, just as it's meaningless when Clegg or whoever says "I believe this is fair". "Fair" is a subjective idea just as 'progressive' is.

It's meaningless spin to claim something as "fair" or "progressive". Spin is all Dave Moron has to offer, it's the only thing that he knows.

[The_Spoon]

WTF is "progressive" meant to mean anyway?

It's a meaningless term, just as it's meaningless when Clegg or whoever says "I believe this is fair". "Fair" is a subjective idea just as 'progressive' is.

It's meaningless spin to claim something as "fair" or "progressive". Spin is all Dave Moron has to offer, it's the only thing that he knows.

[worm]

the education system doesn't have much say in it, for better or for worse, as far as I can tell.

[worm]

Well I would infer it to mean that it is "progressing" things, moving them forward, making them better.

[RABun]

12.19pm: The Press Association news agency has just filed this (see 9.32am):

The police watchdog launched an independent investigation today after a 20-year-old student was left unconscious with bleeding on the brain after being hit on the head with a police truncheon.

[grumpyhack]

University isn't a skill factory you know.

University is about critical thinking. It isn't about getting a job. That's entirely up to the individual once they leave.

[eFestivals]

I absolutely agree that university isn't a skill factory and I'm not suggesting it should be.

the sad reality is that govts now think it should be JUST a skills factory. That is at the heart of all that is now wrong with our higher education system.

[worm]

I absolutely agree that university isn't a skill factory and I'm not suggesting it should be. I'm arguing that university isn't for everyone yet a degree is still generally held in higher regard than many other forms of further ed study.

[worm]

what are all the SATS tests about then?

[worm]

the SATS were brought in to streamline the system. It's a way of checking that everyone is progressing (according to the curriculum... set by the government) at the same pace.

[worm]

because you said the schools are the ones choosing what they teach, and it's not the case