Homeopathy on the NHS

[eFestivals]

How can you factor out the possibility that these people are benefitting from informal counselling - ie friends or family mambers who are good listeners?

do you think that, on average, those using homoeopathic remedies get a greater amount of personal support from friends and family than those who use scientifically-based medical services?

[feral chile]

do you think that, on average, those using homoeopathic remedies get a greater amount of personal support from friends and family than those who use scientifically-based medical services?

Edited January 7, 2011 by feral chile

[feral chile]

On a tangent, but slightly related, one for Neil:

Prayer has no placebo effect

NEW YORK — In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.

Edited January 7, 2011 by feral chile

[RABun]

I'm really surprised this is available, the other one I've always wondered about is IVF.... Is having your own biological kids an essential need when there are so many unwanted ones in the world?

[eFestivals]

On a tangent, but slightly related, one for Neil:

Prayer has no placebo effect

I'd be interested to know whether the patients were believers or atheists though, because that might have affected the results.

The problem for many of these things is that it's extremely difficult to know if everything is equal in the different things that are being compared.

I suspect that the reason for those who were prayed for having a higher rate of complications is due to those people being more seriously ill in the first place, which caused them to be prayed for in the first place.

(Neil cutting religions a bit of slack - who'd have thought it, eh? )

[feral chile]

The problem for many of these things is that it's extremely difficult to know if everything is equal in the different things that are being compared.

I suspect that the reason for those who were prayed for having a higher rate of complications is due to those people being more seriously ill in the first place, which caused them to be prayed for in the first place.

(Neil cutting religions a bit of slack - who'd have thought it, eh? )

[FunkyDenz]

Yes, that's a real turnup. But I don't think it was that, it was a proper controlled study. I'm going to have to see if I can read the original. Basically, this is what happened:

The patients, meanwhile, were split into three groups of about 600 apiece: those who knew they were being prayed for, those who were prayed for but only knew it was a possibility, and those who weren't prayed for but were told it was a possibility.

But it doesn't say there was a control group who didn't know they were being prayed for, or who were told they were prayed for and weren't. Or whether the patients were believers.

[dakyras]

[FunkyDenz]

what happened...?

[feral chile]

It also doesn't add the factor in that people who were not part of the experiment, or even aware of the experiment, could be praying for the patients. This clouds the study, as patients who weren't prayed for within the context of the study, could have in actual fact been prayed for.

For example, 7 years ago I had testicular cancer, I was having chemo.

My mother is a commited Christian (CofE), so she got her church praying for me, and the vicar lay his hands on me (a term for praying with the patient to heal them).

My paternal uncle and aunt are Christians (Anglican) in America, so their house church was praying for me, and my first cousin once removed is a minister in Singapore, so his church was praying for me. One of my closest friends is Roman Catholic and arranged to have mass said at a number of churches in Ireland, and another close friend is a Hindu who had a ceremony performed at the temple for me. I also had a Muslim friend praying for me.

That's a lot of different styles of prayer, none of which I asked for, and frequently only found out about afterwards. This could be the same for any of the patients in the above study.

[Ed209]

I typed a long response to this, but realised that it would break confidentiality. Here is a shortened version.

The homeopathic medication was given due to the young person's high levels of anxiety. During the period he was on it, he did calm down. This could have been due to the homeopathic medication, or due to other factors such as his increasing understanding of what was happening, people simplifying how they communicated with him, and backing it up with picture symbols to help him understand and retain the information, or the changes in routine to better meet his needs, or a combination of these factors.

After several months (I think it was over a year), the homeopathic medication was stopped on a temporary basis. If it had been having an impact, he would likely have become more anxious when it stopped. There was no marked increase in anxiety or aggression. He would still have occassional aggressive outbursts, but these were well managed and contained.

The medication did him no harm, however it was an expensive treatment which probably had no benefit. It cost social care, education and health hundreds of pounds, money which could have been better spent in other ways to make life better for the young person, or for other disabled children who were without resources.

[krisskross]

I'm inclined to think there might be a placebo effect going on here. Though what exactly is a placebo effect? It's where an improvement is found in a sufferer who's been given a substance that does not have any known medicinal benefit. If there is a measurable improvement, even if just in mood, then something is having that effect. Something is affecting brain chemistry.

[feral chile]

its a thing of no medicinal / therapeutic value and causes a measurable effect in treatment because the patient believes they've undergone treatment. The most interesting one i've read about recently is the Dodo bird Effect. Plus there has been a small study looking at the placebo effect. It also seems to work in patients that know they are being given a placebo too. Linky

[llcoolphil]

Though what exactly is a placebo effect?

[llcoolphil]

If psychological support was more readily available as well as drug treatments,

[FunkyDenz]

Well it wasn't due to the homeopathic medicine, unless of course water helps autism

[feral chile]

You definitely want to have a read of Ben Goldacre's book for this kind of stuff. Anadin is more successful at pain relief than the chemically identical supermarket brand because people believe a branded name is better; injections have proven more successful than tablets for no other reason than people think it a more serious form of treatment. Even the colour of tablets can have an impact. It is a brilliant read.

[feral chile]

I used to be the post-boy in an office for a music magazine, and there was always people hanging around, listening to music and making tea generally, but the advertising guy was always taking some kind of drug. One day, a band manager decided to crush a polo mint to powder, and gave it to this guy as some cocaine. He came in the next day saying how good it was and could he get some more...

[FunkyDenz]

I remember hearing about a study where students were served non alcoholic beer, however weren't told it didn't contain alcohol. As the party went on the students were acting drunker and drunker, becoming more confident, slurring their words and staggering.

[Ed209]

Seriously ... what the fuck?!

http://homeoinst.org/news/scottish-parliamentary-event-promotes-homeopathy-alternative-antibiotics-farm-animals

I despair, i really do. The EU has spent 2million euros looking into using homeopathy on cattle!?

Placebos don't work on animals! I could tell them that for free.

meanwhile we *still* fund this shite on the NHS. A Guardian pole last week found 55% of people were against it. 45% of this country are fucking idiots

really makes me mad

[kaosmark2]

Seriously ... what the fuck?!

http://homeoinst.org...cs-farm-animals

I despair, i really do. The EU has spent 2million euros looking into using homeopathy on cattle!?

Placebos don't work on animals! I could tell them that for free.

meanwhile we *still* fund this shite on the NHS. A Guardian pole last week found 55% of people were against it. 45% of this country are fucking idiots

really makes me mad

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Seriously ... what the fuck?!

http://homeoinst.org/news/scottish-parliamentary-event-promotes-homeopathy-alternative-antibiotics-farm-animals

I despair, i really do. The EU has spent 2million euros looking into using homeopathy on cattle!?

Placebos don't work on animals! I could tell them that for free.

meanwhile we *still* fund this shite on the NHS. A Guardian pole last week found 55% of people were against it. 45% of this country are fucking idiots

really makes me mad

[kaosmark2]

You could not make this shit up. I was reading an article that some Finnish researchers have found that "loneliness can cause depression". Some spaz must have signed off on a research grant for that as well.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

I was talking to my tutor about my modules for next year. As I do some counselling I can opt for some therapeutic modules. She was trying to get me to do homeopathy (yes they teach this shit). I work with violent offenders and she was trying the idea of using some herbs to deal with frustration when a 6 pack of Stella and a sack of porn is all that is needed.

Anyway doing clinical hypnotherapy instead.

[kaosmark2]

I was talking to my tutor about my modules for next year. As I do some counselling I can opt for some therapeutic modules. She was trying to get me to do homeopathy (yes they teach this shit). I work with violent offenders and she was trying the idea of using some herbs to deal with frustration when a 6 pack of Stella and a sack of porn is all that is needed.

Anyway doing clinical hypnotherapy instead.